Hermenuetics

Comments

We do not use corporal punishment, and my children are very well disciplined. I defy anyone to tell me my parenting is unbiblical.

Posted By: Robyn | September 23, 2011 11:12 AM

This is an outstanding recommendation. I applaud the author's comment at the end, and I intend to read the book. I think the "Redemptive-Movement Hermeneutic" is gloriously encouraging and hope-filled.

Posted By: Rip Van Winkle | September 23, 2011 11:25 AM

I JUST read and reviewed this book! So helpful (especially the postscript), so freeing, and a great hermeneutic! I've grown up in the South, and I always felt like I needed to spank my kids for them to be well-behaved. The Pearls are a household name where I live. Pro-spankers tend to make it an all-or-nothing deal: either you spank your kids, or your kids are totally undisciplined. While I'm still trying to figure this whole parenting thing out and finding what works for us (my kids are only 2 and 7 months), I'm excited about finding creative alternatives for discipline that are gentle and better uphold the dignity of our children. Great review!

Posted By: Aubry Smith | September 23, 2011 11:26 AM

Thomas Schriner has a comprehensive critique of the hermenutic discussed in this article that you can access here. I have not read the book, but so far as someone who grew up very aware of hermenutics (because unlike at many churches at my childhood church the hermenutics were made very explicit and understandable) I am unconvinced that the model discussed by Webb should replace any of Christianity's historical models. Of course I do not know it from the author's mouth.

Posted By: KT | September 23, 2011 11:28 AM

@KT,

I wrote a full response to Thomas Schriner's review on the TGC website; and William Webb reposted it at his blog, with his own response: http://redemptivechristianity.com/?p=157

Thanks for reading!

Posted By: Rachel Stone | September 23, 2011 11:46 AM

...In seven important ways, he argues, pro-spankers have moved beyond the concrete, specific instructions of Scripture to a form of discipline that is, unquestionably by contemporary standards, ethically superior to what's actually on the pages of Scripture.....
Contemporary standards like: cell phone appendage dependence, gang banging tagers, tattoo/piercing fashion, teen pregnancy/ government dependence, don't discipline for fear of CPS, and let the public school/peers teach the kids how to behave, standards?
It's true that some children need no "spanking" discipline, but for the majority the real choice is: do I spank them for being disrespectful/misbehaving now? while they are young and at home, or let the police "spank" them later.

Posted By: Theophile | September 23, 2011 12:14 PM

This was a difficult decision for us. When our son became 10 months old it was clear that he was showing defiant and disobedient behavior. He didn't talk yet, but he would hit us and throw food everywhere. We talked with him. We prayed with him. The behavior persisited.

After much hesitation, we decided to spank him. We told him what we were going to do. We spanked him and prayed with him. His bad behavior stopped almost immediately.

It is still hard. He is usually much sweeter after a spanking, but sometimes it doesn't affect his bad behavior. In my experience as Christian parents my husband and I decided that we can't solely rely on spanking as a means of discipline. We are still searching as each new situation presents itself!

Posted By: MelissaT | September 23, 2011 2:31 PM

We raised 5 children. We spanked only a limited time. In fact maybe each got a few while young. But after just a few we never had to. All I had to do is put my hand on my belt. My 3 boys quickly wised up. My two girls just needed the look. Most of our discipline were time outs in the corner or making them suffer the consequences for their behavior. Spanking really can be mostly avoided. But sometimes it may be rarely necessary.

Posted By: Doug | September 23, 2011 3:08 PM

I'm thankful you brought this up, and am thankful for the book. Honestly, most of the people in our church (or at least the vocal bit) think that Christian parents spank, non-Christian parents don't. I will not spank my children. I do not see it as a direct command in the Bible, although I DO see "teaching, disciplining, and guiding children in the way of wisdom" as a command. I have never been able to take the "spare the rod, spoil the child" thing literally, just as I do not take every single Proverb and verse literally.

Incidentally, I was spanked only once (and remember it, although I was probably 3 or 4), and even without spanking, I turned out fine. I always respected, honored, and loved my parents, and still have an amazing relationship with them to this day.

I just hope more Christians will be vocal about this other viewpoint in raising kids, because I have felt like a silent minority... but maybe I should take my own advice and begin to be more vocal about my convictions in child-raising.

Posted By: even one sparrow | September 23, 2011 3:32 PM

Count me as another of the never-spanked-my-kids parents. Our thinking was that hitting them taught them to hit. Others may see this differently, but it's not an issue of doctrinal conformity. And both the kids are turning out fine, doing well in college, active in Christian groups, haven't been convicted of a felony yet.

Cheers,
Tim

Posted By: Tim | September 23, 2011 4:26 PM

I was spanked a lot by my Christian parents as a c hild. I got so traumatized that I had my first suicide attempt when I was ten. All my adult life I have suffered from serious posttraumatic stress disorder and depression. I doubt that God wants people to be mentally crippled like I am.

Posted By: Vicky | September 23, 2011 9:53 PM

I think there's a difference between abuse and discipline. Like Vicky, I grew up being terrorized by my mother. She flew into a rage and slapped me across the face or physically attacked or destroyed my things in my room. It was more dependent on her mood than on what I was doing. I have a lot of problems in my life as a result of her abuse. I'm prone to anxiety and depression. I'm a 34 year old perpetually single woman who will probably never get married and be able to have children -- so I guess I don't have to worry about whether or not I will spank them.

Posted By: Anonymous | September 24, 2011 1:19 AM

In the letter to the Ephesians, Paul tells parents not to exasperate their children. I would rather not risk frustrating a child because of misused corporal punishment. There are other more peaceful ways of helping a child to control him or herself. Thanks you for this review.

Posted By: Jeanette | September 24, 2011 5:24 AM

I host a website, www.nopaddle.com, about school paddling as physical and sexual abuse. Many of those aspects are inherent in spanking, even "good spanking."
This book sounds from the description like a Muslim wife-beater who decides the way he hits is better than Islam once allowed, so he's "enlightened." Very little enlightenment, and very slow if so.
The fact is the New Testament does not contain one single instruction for anyone to hit anyone. Even in the Jewish Scriptures, only the secular King Solomon, who never once claimed to speak for God, recommended beating children for the ancient Jews.
I have little doubt it is an ancient practice to beat children, slaves, or anyone of lower social classes through much of human history, including the ancient Jews, but it was nowhere taught by Christ, and nowhere recommended for Christians. Anyone who claims otherwise is either ignorant, misleading or manipulative, whether this author, Dobson, or the Perals.

Posted By: Jeff Charles | September 24, 2011 5:37 AM

@JeffCharles,
Perhaps you did not read the review's end? William Webb comes down clearly on the side of exclusive non-corporal punishment.

Posted By: Rachel Stone | September 24, 2011 7:00 AM

I have a two year old son and my husband and I have already talked extensively about whether or not we will spank him. Maybe this is simplistic (and maybe too early for us to say), but we have decided that if we don't want him to think hitting is okay, we are not going to spank him in discipline.

I know from experience that a young child has a very hard time understanding why his/her parent is spanking...it can feel like hitting, even if it's not done in abuse. It is an incredibly confusing thing for a child, even in the best circumstances when discipline is warranted and the spanking is explained. I just don't know any grown adults who have positive spanking stories from their childhood.

As a child who was spanked by my Christian parents, several times in anger, the spanking never accomplished what was intended. I only felt shamed and misunderstood. At the same time, their spankings were not abusive by any stretch. I just never learned anything positive from these discipline experiences. I learned much more from being grounded or having some fun event or toy taken away.

Posted By: Krista | September 24, 2011 7:24 AM

Robyn, your parenting is unbiblical, and your children are by the Bible's definition NOT well-disciplined. James Dobson did indeed stray from the Biblical teaching. The Bible does not teach spanking. It teaches beating with a rod. This is necessary to ensure that the child learns to submit to authority. It is not a matter of being pleasant to be around, but to be ABLE to submit to authority, i.e. not be self-destructively foolish. My parent's spanked me and I did not learn well enough to submit to authority and have had negative repercussions since. I asked God for forgiveness and began hitting my children with a rod, which does not involve pulling the pants down. My only regret is that for some, I did not do it enough. My children and I are very thankful for the results of beating with a rod. There is nothing ethically superior to what is on the pages of scripture, and for a Christian to even suggest that is heresy.

Posted By: Thomas | September 24, 2011 8:08 AM

Thomas, perhaps you are using satire but I'll take you at face value for a moment. Can you say for certain how your children would have turned out if you had not used corporal punishment? One might conclude from your comment that since the Bible says to use a rod on a child, you should do so whether they need it or not.

For those of us who are seeing our children grow into godly young men and women without having used corporal punishment, are you saying we failed them or God somehow? Are we commanded to use the rod on those who don't need it? I can't recall a single instance in the Bible of someone doing so, at least not someone who was identified as being within God's will.

Cheers,
Tim

Posted By: Tim | September 24, 2011 11:48 AM

I find this logic unpersuasive. The collective of wisdom of parents has informed us that spanking on the bottom can inflict temporary pain without the risk of permanent damage. As such, that is how the practice has evolved.

You can say the same for the practice of tithing, raising elders, translating the bible, etc...

The slavery analogy, in addition to being a hysterical variation on argumentum ad hitlerum, fails essential logic. Christians helped end slavery at least in part because the American institution, rife with cruelty and bigotry, does not resemble the biblical prescription.

By the author's logic, Christians should also cease corporal punishment because the contemporary practice does not resemble the biblical prescription. Unless he can demonstrate the evolution of corporal punishment is rooted in cruelty and bigotry (and he argues the opposite), this doesn't work.

Further, the bible does not prescribe slavery, but rather the conditions under which it is acceptable. Christians, then, are free to advocate for or against it. Not so with corporal punishment.

Posted By: kevin s. | September 24, 2011 1:07 PM

Thomas, what I mean by "ethically superior" is this: non-corporal punishment takes the incremental ethic of Scripture (an ethic that always moves the culture toward God's ideal FROM WHERE THEY ARE) to a greater realization. In that way, it is an application that better reflects Scripture's ultimate ethical application.

Posted By: Rachel Stone | September 24, 2011 1:10 PM

Just wanted to share a couple of great resources for parents who wish to parent within God's will without using corporal punishment -
www.gentlechristianmothers.com
Arms Of Love Family Fellowship (I hesitate to post a URL because I cannot recall if it is www.aolff.COM or .ORG)
There are many parents out there raising Godly, disciplined children without the use of spanking. Never feel alone, never feel pressured to go against the call of the Holy Spirit to physically harm your children in order to teach them.

Posted By: A mom with help | September 24, 2011 1:32 PM

Concerning the notion of feeling alone or pressured regarding our lack of corporal punishment, never felt a bit of either. What I did feel was pity for those families who felt compelled to use it whether it actually was best for the children or not.

Cheers,
Tim

Posted By: Tim | September 24, 2011 2:53 PM

We don't spank our kids either. In fact, we've moved to a non-punitive style (teaching, not punishment), so much more peace in the home as we learn how to do this.
I think the confusion comes when we try to elevate the Bible above Jesus. Jesus came to reveal the Father. Jesus defines the Scriptures, not the other way around.
"Anything you think you know about about God, that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question."-Bill Johnson
Check out this site for more info on grace based parenting: http://aolff.org/ Another good one: http://www.calmchristianparenting.com/

Posted By: Grace | September 24, 2011 7:49 PM

In 19 U.S. States it is legal for school teachers, coaches and administrators to hit schoolchildren K-12 with wooden paddles to inflict pain as punishment for minor infractions, known as "Corporal Punishment".

School Paddling injuries put school districts at risk of lawsuits paid for by taxpayers in the communities.

Search "A Violent Education" for disturbing facts.

Please add your voice to stand with U.S. Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy to Abolish Corporal Punishment of Students in All U.S. Schools at donthitstudents dot com.

Posted By: Julie Worley | September 24, 2011 10:14 PM

""Anything you think you know about about God, that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question."-Bill Johnson"

Jesus didn't have any children, so this is hardly relevant.

Posted By: kevin s. | September 24, 2011 11:08 PM

Prof. webb's book is a welcomed edition to this important debate especailly considering that this issue is one that so many people think has been gone over in such great detail by Christians (including scholars) to the point that for any Christian, like Webb and others, to suggest that corporal punishment needs to be reconsidered, those who suggest the same are often just dismissed as completely ignorant of the most simple and easily understood of Bible teachings. Webb joins many other scholars in showing that this topic needs further debate and what scholars are saying in seminaries and academic journals needs to be heard on main street because many conservative Christian scholars agree with Webb.

It is also essential that a more detailed examination of the Biblical texts take place in light of the well intentioned teachings promoted by many today especially those in favor of corporal punishment.

Posted By: Samuel Martin | September 25, 2011 3:50 PM

I was never spanked as a kid - neither was my older brother - while I do not endorse the taking of a 2x4 to a child's head, if a child does misbehave it could be due to diet. Here in Florida I see a lot of young families feeding the smallest of children sugary, fatty foods instead of healthy, nutritious vegetables and fruits. Kids act hyper due to sugar and artificial flavors and colors. If the Bible says that our bodies are to be treated as temples for the Holy Spirit, maybe the garbage can diet is not so great for children (much less adults; people live on fast food down here; I wish I could buy Brussels sprouts at the grocery store in season). That would eliminate the need for a 2 x 4.

Posted By: Mary | September 25, 2011 5:25 PM

As one for whom the Bible is the sole rule for faith and practice I must admit to having some reservation about any "contemporary standards" being "ethically superior to what's actually on the pages of Scripture".

As a Bible student I understand that not everything in the Old Testament was written to or even about the Church, but that those things were "written for our learning". I also understand that as a Christian I must allow the N.T to interpret the O.T. almost all the time or I will come up with some bizarre beliefs.

I have never understood the term "spanking" to mean beating a child to within half an inch of his/her life, or in such a way as to cause serious physical or psychological harm or damage. And in any event there are already laws against such behaviour.

To me, it is manifestly unjust to consider a parent abusive for believing that timely, measured and properly administered corporal discipline may be appropriate on some occasions or for some children.

And what is the point in playing the statistical game which says either that I was spanked and became Godzilla, or I was not spanked and became Mother Theresa? There is usually much more involved in what we turn out to be than the simply fact that we were or were not spanked.

And this idea that spanking leads to the "victim" becoming cruel or suicidal is hardly true. Most of the persons I grew up with were beaten by their parents. I was beaten by my mother a woman whom I dearly love. I do not consider myself a cruel, vengeful person, nor have I ever once spanked my only daughter.

I would, however, not have liked the option to be taken away from me when I was raising my child simply because other parents cannot control themselves.

For me there are several legitimate ways to discipline your child and spanking is one of them and should be maintained.

Any form of discipline can be overdone; some forms seem to work best with some children and not others.

The law should take its course whenever spanking leaves the realm of discipline and enters that of brutality.

Posted By: Steve Skeete | September 25, 2011 6:49 PM

The seven ways that pro-spankers have unwittingly moved "beyond the Bible"

How about an article talking about the many ways that liberal Christians have remolded the Bible to suit their own political ideology, etc.? Everywhere I look, even in supposedly "Christian" books, websites and other places, conservative or traditional Christians are being criticized for believing what the Bible says and even mocked from the pulpit for doing so (I left my former church of 13 years because I discovered that my senior pastor was doing this very thing). There is plenty of criticism to go around for everyone, even those Christians who think they are so much better than we old thinking, corner dwelling, pharasacial, redneck, morons (those are just some of the things said about conservative Christians by my former pastor ... from the pulpit and in his writings).

Posted By: SusanP | September 26, 2011 6:40 AM

While I personally would keep spanking as an option, I think that particular Proverb is actually about disciplining children in general than it is about one specific method. Groundings, increasing chores, whatever just as long as behavior is corrected.

Posted By: K. | September 26, 2011 5:47 PM

I think that the account of Jesus sparing the woman caught in adultery can be instructive. She had broken the law, and stoning was her proscribed punishment. But Jesus did not allow it to be carried out -- instead, he used mercy to instruct her, and also taught the crowd who had been eager to cast stones.

This one story seems to indicate that Christian parents don't HAVE TO spank their children -- we can use other ways to instruct our children. "Teach" is, after all, the root word of "discipline."

Posted By: Nancy | September 26, 2011 9:04 PM

My husband and I were new Christians with two small children when the James Dobson books came out with their insistence on spanking as the required form of discipline for committed Christian parents. We took his advice. To this day, I regret every spanking I administered to my children; although I followed the recipe given by Dobson regarding under what circumstances and exactly how to accomplish the spanking, I believe it was very wrong. I disregarded my own maternal intuition about what was best for my children and adopted spanking as a religious duty, like tithing and church attendance. I should never have disciplined my children (now grown, with their unique strengths and weaknesses) according to someone else's formula.

Posted By: anonymous | September 26, 2011 11:53 PM

Oh fine. I'll make my same point more seriously, since my comment wasn't allowed to stand satirically.

Many Christians point to Proverbs and take these sayings of general wisdom as commands when it comes to spanking, while not placing nearly the same weight on other verses. Even those relating to "the rod".

For example, "Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of one who has no sense." (Prov 10:13) I see no current literature or tortured concern over whether we should beat foolish men with a rod on their back - or strike them in any way, for that matter. In fact, it's probably unthinkable for the vast majority of us.

Yet the rod verses when applied to children are taken as strict commands within some Christians circles, to the extent that those who don't practice "spanking" (not at all the biblically prescribed action, but "ethically superior" and based on "the collective of wisdom of parents") are denounced as unbiblical. Even within these comments there are assumptions that unspanked children lack all discipline and will end up in police custody one day!

Either Proverbs are commands or they're not. To simply ignore inconvenient verses is obviously hypocritical.

One other thing... "When our son became 10 months old it was clear that he was showing defiant and disobedient behavior. He didn't talk yet, but he would hit us and throw food everywhere. We talked with him. We prayed with him. The behavior persisted. After much hesitation, we decided to spank him. We told him what we were going to do. We spanked him and prayed with him...."

Really? Ten months old and somehow he didn't respond to your rational discussion? I think that it behooves all parents to have at least a minimal understanding of child development. How sad that kids are being struck for things that are developmentally age expected.

Posted By: KM | September 27, 2011 12:32 AM

KM: my sentiments exactly. Webb and others point to Dr. Dobson as a promoter of spanking, however has anyone read Ted Tripp in Shepherding a Child's Heart? He makes Dr. Dobson appear downright permissive.

Posted By: dana | September 27, 2011 7:59 AM

Oh, I am literally "laughing out loud" at your comment Thomas. I guess I better run out and buy a "rod" (should it be wood? Metal? Leather?) or else I am a heretic.

It sure is a shame that you feel you weren't beaten enough. Perhaps it is BECAUSE you were beaten that you are experiencing so many problems. You learned FEAR instead of RESPECT.

My parenting is entirely biblical. I don't feel the need to elaborate as many others above already have so eloquently.

Posted By: Robyn | September 27, 2011 1:52 PM

After you spanked your child did you give the guy panhandling on the corner a beer today?

Proverbs 31:6-7
6 Give strong drink to him who is perishing,
And wine to him whose life is bitter.
7 Let him drink and forget his poverty
And remember his trouble no more.

Posted By: LW | September 27, 2011 8:22 PM

It is illegal in my country to spank or use corporal punishment. I spanked my kids (prior to this law)and would still do it if they were still under my care if necessary (they now have families of their own). I would do this with a clear conscience also as I did then and I have not regrets.

The notion that we are morally progressive such that we have moved beyond the moral standards of Scripture comes right out of a feminist hermeneutic that retrospectively passes moral judgements on past generations by means of a novel morality. This morality not only reinterprets Scripture to suit itself but lays the philosophical and hermeneutical ground for justifying other contemporary behaviours.

I am old enough to have been caned and strapped at school. I deserved most of what I got and am thankful for it. THe moral thinking behind its banning is fundamentally flawed. History has not vindicated this error. It only reflected a fundamental social and moral shift that we have suffered for ever since but refuse to revisit.

Posted By: Keith | September 28, 2011 5:09 PM

In my humble observation, there are more and more young generation who rebelled and disrespectful not only against parents or authorities but also against God the Almighty in a country where it is illegal to spank or use corporal punishment!

Posted By: sav3 | January 17, 2012 4:55 AM

I sat in Bill Webb's class as a student and instead of teaching "Hermeneutics" he just defended himself against other respected authors who had critiqued his own book. His books are great at asking good questions but his answers are uncontrolled by the Bible's own method of interpretation. His review of Schreiner's review of his book is so simplistic and fails to reckon with its substance.

Posted By: Donna | April 25, 2012 10:33 PM

please go on youtube watch joseph prince he'll explain how the old testament was the law and we are not under the law anymore were under grace because grace is a person his name is Jesus he was condemned on the cross so that we would not ever be condemned again

Posted By: milly | May 13, 2012 11:39 AM