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« When Child Discipline Becomes Abuse | Main | Exotic Animals and Kingdom Ethics »

October 19, 2011

Why Church Matters

How we can remind each of the need for the church to play a central role in our lives.

Mary DeMuth, guest blogger

Recently I wrote a blog post entitled, Spiritual Abuse: 10 Ways to Spot it. While I'm not an expert on spiritually abusive churches or ministries, I've had my share of negative experiences, some bordering on abuse.

As I read through the comments, I saw a lot of hurting people, some of whom have left church because of the pain. Couple that with high-profile pastors leaving their churches and the fact that more and more people are emigrating away from traditional church, and we find we're in a bit of a conundrum about church. What is it? Why is it necessary? Why bother? Isn't everything church? Or nothing at all? Is attendance required for a Christ follower?

When we church planted in southern France a few years ago, we ran into an interesting obstacle. Some folks believed that any sort of gathering was "church." If we hung out, we were having church. If we went to a concert, church. If we walked down the street and ran into another Christian, that was church, too. If that is true, why bother with the local congregation?

Bill Hybels has said, “The local church is the hope of the world, and its future rests primarily in the hands of its leaders.” The best way to see converts, missiologist C. Peter Wagner tells us, is to plant a church. He wrote, “Church planting is the best methodology of evangelism under the sun.” Church erupted from a Holy Spirit-shaking prayer room in the second chapter of Acts, and it spread like the dickens to every remote corner of the earth. Jesus tells Peter he'll build his church on the rock of Peter’s belief.

And yet I run into people who no longer attend, who mimic my friends in France, who believe hanging out is enough.

The New Testament uses the Greek word Ecclesia to describe our local congregation. Here's a simple definition:

1. A congregation
2.The assembly of citizens of an ancient Greek state [from Medieval Latin, from Late Greek ekklesia assembly, from ekkletos called, from ekkalein to call out, from kalein to call]

A church is a body of called out ones. From Paul's writings (in a nutshell), it's a group of local Christians who celebrate the sacraments and have a leadership structure in place with deacons and elders who orchestrate the mission of the church. According to Alan Hirsch, the church should be a centered set (based on social set theory) where Jesus is at its center, beckoning people toward him through his irresistibility. It's not about who is out or who is in, but who is on the journey toward Christ. As I've talked to my theologically astute husband, he echoes these definitions, saying that church is the place where . . .

we're taught
we give
we meet each other's needs
we pray and encourage others
we take communion
we worship
we administer baptism
we marry and bury

Church is the center point where we love others, modeling Jesus to the world through our sacrifice and missional community.

Edmund P. Clowney in his book The Church defines it in terms of the gospel: "To avoid bewilderment among these many perspectives on the church, we need to focus on the apostolic gospel by which the New Testament church was founded. The saving truth of the gospel is to be believed, and proclaimed to the nations. The gospel is also to be lived, for holiness, no less than truth, marks the Spirit's work. Further, this believing, proclaiming and living take place within a community. Those who are in Christ are joined to one another in an organism. There is a holy, spiritual order to God's community. It is not formed like other organizations, but it is a colony of heaven, a pilgrim people, traveling toward the day of Christ's return." (p. 72).

With that definition, everything is not church. Hanging out is not church. And if we are running from church because of our injury or personal bias, we are missing out on God's calling to us. He calls us all out to be a part of his ecclesia, his local congregation. Yes, as Christ’s followers, we're all a part of the universal Body of Christ. But to be effective and obedient and shaped and discipled, we must be a part of a local group of believers, breaking bread together, submitting ourselves to teaching, letting others into our lives, giving them permission to say the hard things.

We live in a mobile culture, which sometimes isolates us. We who create personas on the web, who perfect our hiding, may find attaching ourselves to a local church frightening. And yet God calls us there, warts and all. He calls us to covenant together with other Jesus disciples, to messy our lives with people we might not hang out with normally. In that beautiful conflagration of community, we learn the art of loving each other and showing the world outside our circle just who Jesus is.

Question for you:
What is church? Why attend church? And what about church has harmed you? Inspired you? Helped you? Grown you?

Mary DeMuth is the author of twelve books including her latest, The Muir House (a novel). She speaks around the country and the world, encouraging people to live uncaged lives. She lives with her husband, three teens, a needy dog and an angry cat in Texas. Find out more at http://www.marydemuth.com

Comments

"... what about church has harmed you?"

I'm more concerned with what I may do that harms the Church and those in the Body of Christ. By God's grace, I will follow the instructions of Hebrews 10:24-25 - "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching."

Tim

Hanging out isn't church though we can have great fellowship. In Church we will have all sorts of different people -- some we may hang out with and others we would NEVER hang out with if not for church. We need to be around all these different kinds of people because Iron sharpens Iron. It is easy to get along with like-minded people, but when we love our brothers and sisters in Christ even though we are vastly different and we serve with them THEN Jesus is glorified and the people "will know we are Christians by our love" as the song goes (plus this is also found in John 17 in a slightly different way).

No, it isn't easy but it is what God calls us to. We grow as individuals when we are unified.

I go to church because I encounter Christ there -- in my fellow parishioners, in the words and silences, in the Eucharist. I go because I'm weak and weary and long for sacrament and relationship. I go because I want to be a part of living the Kingdom of God, here and now. I go to join the funny, gracious, caring community of people I've come to love as we worship together. I also go because I'm in the choir and I'm expected to go, and because there's coffee. And those are just a few reasons.

I know so many who have been hurt at church, by other members, by people they've served with, felt excluded by, etc. But I'm so glad you wrote this, because we need to continue to encourage one another to not let these things become an excuse to disobey God or to miss out on the blessings of being a part of a church (Heb. 10:24-25).

I also like that you defined what church is and isn't. It's SO easy in this day and age to take an online or tv sermon and pretend we've gone to church. I'm thankful it's there for those who can't get out, but the rest of us will only be spiritually strengthened as we worship, serve, learn and even struggle sometimes at church.

Great post, Mary.

"how has church harmed you...." My experience has been that those in the particular churches I was attending were self centered, fake, and only took care of those who were on the inside, this goes for the women and the men both, 4 churches in a row. I had legitimate needs and all I got was talk and no action. My trust in christians is at times less than that of secular people as a direct result of this. Stop sugar coating the truth, if you can't walk it, don't talk it.

If the local church is to image the triune God in this world, then the abandonment of the church by hurting Christian people betrays the very reason for which we have been redeemed and called. Thanks for the exhortation to not forsake coming together around worship, the eucharist, giving, learning, and koinonia-commitment.

Gotta admit that my family had a tough time in churches, which has shaped my experience (and commitment) as a young adult. I have yet to find a church body that feels like MORE than a social club, unfortunately--and believe me, my long string of church visits in the multiple cities where I've lived proves I've tried. When "hanging out" with Christian friends (or family) feels more edifying than church, it's hard to see the merits of this argument.

Hmm...what if half the churches you have been in have turned out to have sexual predators in the leadership and/or pulpit? It is very easy to wag a finger at people who have left church because they have been hurt. But there are many reasons why and a more Christ-like approach might be to find out the reasons before making assumptions and scolding. Just saying....

1. Mary confuses derivation with meaning. While "ekklesia" is derived from Greek verbal elements which meant "called out", by the time the NT was written, "ekklesia" was a common Greek word for a gathering or group of people. ("Hippopotamus" is derived from Greek words for "river horse", but the Man from Snowy River did not ride a hippopotamus.)
2. Mary confuses the definition of a word with teaching about something. The word "church" (ekklesia) as used in the NT meant a gathering (thus e.g. Acts 19:32). This lines up with Mary's very first noted definition, "1. A congregation". The NT writers usually (at least in the earlier written NT documents) qualified the word when they meant a Christian gathering. Having defined "church" in NT as a Christian group or gathering, we may then move on helpfully to see what the NT authors taught about what gathered Christians should do together etc - but we should not drag that teaching into the definition. Rather than saying that a particular Christian gathering, because doesn't do something, is not a church, it is more in line with the NT to say that that church it is not doing what it should. The various activities etc which Mary collects from the Apostle Paul, from Alan Hirsch, Ed Clowney, and her husband, cannot reasonably be understood as elements of a definition, but may perhaps (depending on our understanding of NT teaching) be things which a church should do.

Now ... why go to church? The consistent NT answer about purpose is that we go to build up one another, to encourage and stir up one another, even together to build up the body of Christ (e.g. 1 Cor 14, Eph 4, Hebr 10:24-25).
And what to do together?
Acts 2:42 apostles' teaching ... fellowship ... breaking bread ... prayers.
Col 3:16 teaching and admonishing one another ... singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs ... thankfulness ... to God
1 Tim 2 praying

The NT never (yes, NEVER) says that what we do in church is 'worship'. Rather, the various NT authors describe and instruct what we do in other language (as above), and also consistently apply 'worship' words to Christian 24/7 living in the world.

But I meant to begin by saying, sincerely, many thanks Mary for a very helpful and thought provoking message!

An insightful post full of wisdom on a much needed topic. You hit the nail on the head, Mary, when you said: "But to be effective and obedient and shaped and discipled, we must be a part of a local group of believers, breaking bread together, submitting ourselves to teaching, letting others into our lives, giving them permission to say the hard things." I couldn't agree more. Thanks for this well-thought out, encouraging post today. Blessings!

Tim, I love your heart in this. Yes, it's so important that we look to ourselves and make sure we're not the problem!

Jane, I love that point. My husband made that one to me as we discussed this post. Church is a conglomeration of all sorts of people. The beauty of it is that Jesus unites people who may not have hung out together normally.

Alissa, five gold stars for your choir and coffee comment!

Anonymous, I so agree. Online church isn't church. Listening to a sermon isn't church, though it is instructive.

William,

Thank you for your honesty, though it makes me sad to hear that you've experienced what you've experienced. Selfishness should not define church.

To push back a bit, did you actively seek to love others and meet needs as well? If we're all going to church to be filled only, then we'll all be guilty of selfishness.

Scott,

I smiled when I read your name. Thank you for your comments. I know you're passionate about the church.

Natale,

Thanks for your words and sharing your heart here.

But what about obedience? About not forsaking your assembly with other believers? I'm not trying to be annoying, just asking the question.

We've had similar experiences to those of William and at one point I said to the pastor that I thought it mattered who you were whether or not the church cared for you. He thought for a minute and said, "I think you're right". I guess we're nobody. This same pastor then told us we had too many needs (while losing several family members in a short time) and will no longer talk with us. We have been wandering for a couple years now only to find that none of the churches we visit on a regular basis has EVER invited to be a part of the life of the church. I'm not sure why we would want to be a part of a church anymore. (We serve by using our gifts for Christian organizations outside the local church.)

Katherine,

As an abuse victim, I hear your words. Here's something paradoxical I've learned. God often uses the vehicle of our pain to heal that pain. In other words, if we are injured in community, He heals in community. The problem is that if we hole ourselves off by choosing never to interact again, we miss the healing that can come from positive community.

Is it a risk? Absolutely.

In saying this, of course I believe that anyone (whether they be in the pulpit or in ministry or live down the street from us) who is guilty of molesting and abusing others should be brought to judgment by the church and the law. Absolutely.

It makes me extremely angry to hear so many stories of abuse of power in church, particularly with sexual abuse. It makes me sick and grieves me. I'm so sorry you've encountered that.

Andrew, I so appreciate your words here. Thank you! I definitely see your point. I wish I had more space to explore the subject in depth as you have here, and I believe you've contributed to the discussion in an important way.

Donna, thanks for your kind words.

Jean, wow, that's just so sad and frustrating and painful and awful! I'm sorry you walked through that. The church should be a place where folks carry each other's burdens. As I pushed back in another comment, have you considered that God might use another frail, broken church to heal the very thing you walked through?

I've had my share of church hurts, but what has helped me heal is remembering that, although church is the jumping-off-place for spiritual growth, it is also a flawed institution because we're all flawed. People mess up. People run churches. But you don't swear off marriage forever because you had a bad boyfriend in high school, and we're wise when we sort through the hurt and human influence to the heart of God, to get to what church is all about. Thanks for highlighting that here, Mary!

Andrew Dircks, your Man From Snowy River illustration is worth its weight in hippopotami!

And I join you and others in thanking Mary for a very thought-provoking and productive column. God loves the church, so I guess I might as well try to do the same.

Tim

P.S. "Oh to live above with saints I love, that would be glory. To live below with saints I know? Now that's another story!"

Mary, we are open to another church, but didn't want to rush into picking one based on what pleases us. We decided to wait until God clearly showed us which church to join. It's quite clear that our last church isn't interested in us returning as they have not come to even see how we are doing. As far as another church, we are waiting to see where we are invited and as I said, not one church has invited to participate in anything other than Sunday worship, even though many people know we are "shopping". We really don't want to arbitrarily pickif we aren't really wanted anywhere. So we continue to visit.....

Jean, you say that no one from your old church has checked in on you. Did you check in on people who left that church when you still attended there? If so, brava. If not, perhaps you were part of a church culture that did not have that type of follow-up and you can help create a different culture at your new church. As for waiting for God to show you which church to join, that could be a long wait depending on what you mean by "show." In any case, I hope you find one soon that is rich in fellowship and edification.

Tim

Great post, Mary!

Mary,

Those are all huge questions - What is church? Why go to church? How has church inspired or harmed you?

In my own words, I define church as where a Christian joins other Christians to be spiritually challenged and filled by preaching and teaching, to sing with, pray with, serve with others, setting aside a time and place to welcome God's Spirit and presence among Believers.

I go to church because I am called to "not forsake the assembling of yourselves together" and because I need to share my life with others so we can each learn and grow based on what God's done in our lives. Church is a way for me to also refocus my love for the Lord, to redirect my sights on Him and His goodness. When I do this, I am fulfilled. I am fulfilled in singing praise to God, I am fulfilled in what I hear from the pastor's preaching, and I am fulfilled in giving my tithes and offerings, and taking communion. It is something I do because I enjoy it, I learn from it, I'm challenged from the preaching, and I am inspired to serve God by it. Some Sundays, I'm also overcome by the compassion of God, something I sense when I worship in singing or hear God's word preached.

In my travels throughout my life, I've been to numerous different denominations of churches, and I know that in every church I've stepped foot in something has hurt me or offended me... And so I feel there are two approaches to looking at this: 1.) Christians are messed up just like any other human and in our frailty we are bound to be broken and in some cases despicable representations of Jesus, and therefore we should all give up on the church and do whatever we feel like, or 2.) Knowing that we are still *not perfect*, should be careful to keep ourselves humble in order to give the grace, and live a life of the love we have received. This means loving the church as Christ loved us, aka serving others before self and staying faithful to the will of the Father. To my knowledge Jesus was building an organization to show the world the POWER of His Father's love. If it were just for looking perfect, well, let's just say I'm pretty sure Jesus' intentions for the church were nobler than making up a club of followers to show how righteous and good they could look to the world. I'm also pretty sure that He would be the last one to leave a church, and the first to give His life for it...which He did. There just doesn't seem to be any example of Jesus giving up on His people, so why should a follower of his?

As a follower of Christ, I know He wants me to be a part of the life of my church because He's still yearning to grow me and others, despite our shortcomings. Church is a place to show and receive the same grace God portrayed by Jesus' death. I don't know where God wants to start His work in His followers if not in relationship and community to one another in the church. We express love when there is relationship and community - which is what God wants. And relationship doesn't happen alone. This is why I am a part of a church.

Mary, thank you for your kind words. I do understand your point. But when I said that about half of the churches I've been in had predators either in leadership or the pulpit, that is over the course of a lifetime - 12 or so pastors plus assorted leaders. Evidence that I can trust would need to be pretty compelling.

With respect, the forsaking of the fellowship of the saints goes both ways. I've been in a long-term illness situation for over a decade now. The brunt of this hit a couple years after my husband left, so I was a single, unemployed mother with an invisible disability. Quite frankly, over the intervening years I received blessed little support from Christians. On the contrary, I've been accused of deception, manipulation, laziness and drug abuse. I was asked more than once if I thought my son would be better off in foster care when I asked for support. Note: supprt not offered. I have given people who claimed to be interested solid Christian materials only to be told "we don't have time" and "it must not matter too much to you or you would've gotten it to me quicker." I've lost cumulatively thousands of dollars over the years trusting Christians who meant well, but thought they knew better than I about what we "really" needed and thus put my son and myself in harm's way. Many of the people I have describled have been Christian leaders. I've gome so far as to enquire of faculty at evangelical seminaries to find what kind of training pastors receive in real pastoral care of the ill only to be told that it isn't really taught.

I have fought to regularly attend church over the years, but without church moving toward me my son and I have faced real harm. It would take an amazing amount of evidence for me to entrust myself to a church again.

I want to be clear: this wasn't just about md wanting others to serve me; I wanted to serve and use my gifts. I also desperately wanted my son to see Christ's love through his people. But the more I pushed for connection, the more we were pushed out; we simply couldn't fit into the system. All I can say: thank Gox for Boy Scouts, and thank him for the relationships and opportunities that have come from outside the four walls. Not ideal by far, but God is good

"What is church? Why attend church? And what about church has harmed you? Inspired you? Helped you? Grown you?"

As I've "matured" in my walk with God, church for me now is like a second home. I can't live without it, I can't stay away from it for long periods of time & it's a sanctuary for me from the "outside world." Believe me, it wasn't like this all the time. Just like any family home, things can get unpleasant & painful sometimes but family is still important. The more I get older the more I appreciate God's command for us not to neglect fellowship with our brothers & sisters in Christ. We need others to help us grow in our spiritual life. I'm thankful church per se has not harmed me in any way but people have. I've learned to focus on Jesus so I won't get too discouraged when people simply act like human beings. I know it's easier said than done but it's better done than not. God bless!

1. When I was 10 years old my mother's best friend, her Sunday School teacher, suddenly dropped her for a new best friend. I found out years later that was this woman's pattern, but my mother didn't know that and it was the first time I had seen my mother cry.
2. When I was 14 years old the youth pastor's wife told me (in front of everybody) how rude I was and how I always said things to hurt everybody's feelings. I hadn't even said anything! As an adult I realize I probably was rude, but it was age-appropriate and I would have expected someone that worked with junior high kids to know this.
3. When I was 16 years old I found out my Sunday School teacher had told everybody I lied about a specific incident. When the truth came out (that I had not lied) she was too proud to apologize.
4. In my early 20's my husband and I built a home and the contractor went broke and could not or would not sell us the house. We had given up our other home and literally had nowhere to live. Living in a week to week apartment we called our Sunday School teacher for prayer and he said he'd call us back. He never did. (I guess he never noticed we weren't in class, either.)
5. In my late 20's the teacher of our couple's class started a rumor that I was sleeping around. When the whole story came out and he admitted that he said it because he liked me and wanted me to come to him for comfort the preacher of the church took HIS side!!
6. In my 30's I don't want to go church. Can you blame me? (Actually, I guess it sounds like you can.)

Too Hurt, I can't blame you at all. All I can do is pray for you and trust the Holy Spirit will guide you in your relationship with Jesus.

Tim

It breaks my heart to read such awful stories of Christians behaving badly. I wish I could hug all the hurt away. When things like this happen, I have to trust in the sovereignty of God and His ability to judge everyone rightly in the end. Those who abuse, shun, live in selfishness, and oppress are seen.

It also reminds me to be better at watching out for the hurting in my own church. It convicts me that I haven't always reached out to those who stay on the fringes. I don't always go out of my way to seek out and love people. But by the grace of God I go on.

Also, please hear my heart. I'm not out to pass judgment on folks who are church burned. My post about spiritual abuse http://www.marydemuth.com/2011/09/spiritual-abuse-10-ways-to-spot-it/ shows my heart for those walking through this kind of trauma. I also wrote a follow up post for folks trying to figure out what to do in the aftermath: http://www.marydemuth.com/2011/10/what-to-do-if-youre-in-a-spiritually-abusive-situation/

Mind if I pray?

Lord Jesus, You are the head of the church. Help us all to understand what that means. Please provide a haven-like church where folks love each other and You to all those who have been abused, neglected, taunted, made fun of, harmed, and shunned by their churches and the people within. Help those of us in church to be alert to the needs around us. Help us to be that cup of cold water to a thirsty friend. Forgive us for not seeing the needs. Lord, please clean up Your church. Please heal us as we attend. Please minister to those in profound and lifechanging ways who are far from church and suffering because of it. You are the great healer, and we trust You to do amazing things. Amen.

I would adjust your husband's definition to remove the passivity the first descriptor. Rather than "We're taught," I would say "We learn" as well as "We teach." I would also add "We love and are loved." For there is no church without love.

Hope that needs truly are met by the people in the church!

My husband and I were in a pseudo-Christian cult for many years and had a difficult time reconnecting with God and the church. We lead a support group for people who have in cultic or spiritually abusive groups or churches. The stories we hear are heart breaking. It is so hard for people who have been hurt by an abusive cult leader, pastor, etc. to find any understanding in churches. Many Christians make insensitive statements, such as, "You just need to forgive," or "You just need to move on," or "well, it just makes the point about how important it is to know the Scripture." My personal favorite is "I would never join a cult." Well, duh! No one "joins" a cult. They join a Bible study and after being in a thought reform environment, they are sucked in. I was raised in a Southern Baptist church and graduated from a conservative theological seminary. I should have been the last person to become involved in a cult, but yet I did. I wrote a book about my experience - the title says it all, "I Can't Hear God Anymore: Life in a Dallas Cult."

Christians need to be more understanding and realize that cults are not just defined by their aberrant doctrines.

I was struck by the line toward the end: We live in a mobile culture, which sometimes isolates us. We who create personas on the web, who perfect our hiding, may find attaching ourselves to a local church frightening.

I am sure that for some people, who you are online is simply a persona, it was online that I really found my "voice." I was a bit of an outcast in high school and was from a small town where everyone knew my family and what they did at work and at church, etc. - I was X's and Y's daughter, rather than me. But I started writing fanfic about Lord of the Rings and found a community of fellow artistic types and fellow fantasy lovers and Christians who were used to walking the road less traveled - and they knew me as me. I could wear a lot of masks quite convincingly in my "real" (offline) life, but online I was authentic. Those "online friends" have seen me over the deaths of close friends and my transition to graduate school and into adulthood where I paid my own rent. Ironically, because our lives are so mobile I couldn't carry friends I knew offline with me half as well as I could online friends. These are the people who have known me a decade and longer.

I normally pass over comments like that because they're common enough, and probably accurate enough to most peoples' experience. (I'm talking about true friendships, not the way that word is used on Facebook and other social networking sites to refer to acquaintances/readers). But I wanted to mention it here because I think it's actually pertinent. There are people for whom a book club may have more in common with the ekklesia experience than what they'd find at the local church building. Of course, you're right - not all fellowship is church, nor is all church fellowship. But I do think that ekklesia takes forms beyond what would jump to most peoples' minds when they think of church.

Great line, Marta: "... not all fellowship is church, nor is all church fellowship."

Tim

You opened a can of worms when you wrote this post. I live in an area with very few believers and almost all of them have experienced pain and confusion in church. I am including those who have been pastors and leaders in this statement.

For the last five years I've been doing Pastoral counseling outside the church. It is a specific assignment that God gave me after graduating seminary. Many of my clients come to counseling because of church related issues and often they find themselves unable to find a church where they feel safe or included. God has been misrepresented so often from the pulpit, it is a great tragedy.

We need to look long and hard at what church has become and not be afraid of facing the truth. By the way I do attend church because I love the people of God and my heart breaks when they are all alone with their pain and struggles. One thing I don't do is idealize it or allow it to become more than it should. God is the center of my life, not church.

Take a look at my blog if you have struggled with the goodness of God. My posts are there for the stugglers and the wounded.
Blessings,
Alicia

Church means to interact with GOD,among Men. The very first Church was in the Garden of Eden. The time ,in the cool of each day when GOD used to visit the first Parents. The saddest day was when He found them in Hiding resulting in breakage to Commune with GOD. Israel in the wilderness, worshipped GOD through idols. What GOD desires is like in the Beginning before Sin , there be nothing that stands between Man & GOD. This is His love, which he told Abraham- seeds like the sands & stars, but need be both in Quality & Quantity. That which keeps Man from GOD is Sin. It is for this reason that He send His Son, full of Grace & Truth, so that Man may be redeemed of Sin through Him & be with GOD in Eternity.For right now He looks only at His Son, & whoever be found IN His Christ becomes a Child of GOD of a Time till Grace be removed. Christ is that Rock which followed Israel in the wilderness. God is one who has no end or beginning & has always been. Everything about Him is unmeasurable. It is impossible for any intelligence to comprehend Him ,in Time.

"whoever be found IN His Christ becomes a Child of GOD of a Time till Grace be removed"

Abey, I've never heard the phrase "till Grace be removed" before and have no idea what it means. Can you explain it simply and clearly for me? I am particularly interested in the biblical basis for the concept of grace being removed, and how it is removed from one of those who belong to Christ.

Thanks,
Tim

Tim, The book of life is given to the Lamb Of GOD which is Jesus Christ, Judgment comes by Him. Grace & judgment cannot come together,off the same person, so before he starts to Judge grace is removed. Moreover the Word Grace has reference to a period of time, which means an extension in Time, (shown by the miracles he performed while on earth as Son of Man) which has a definite ending, through the appointed times.It is the will of the Father that we become in His Christ, & those who come IN Him have no Judgment. In their appointed time everyone stands before GOD either on the basis off the Covenant or on the basis of Judgment. Pray that it be on the former.

Its true that many people have stopped going to church or not interested in going to church. Nice post

Wonderful message. Thanks. There are a few people that I would like to share this with.

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