Hermenuetics

Comments

What you are saying essentially, is that women's Christian ministry can be cliched; I think that Christianity per se can involve a number of cosy falsehoods to be honest; and that goes for men, women and children! What we all need, and what is spiritually fulfilling, is a real faith that challenges us to live out the gospel, and to live out our calling. There is no place for falsehood, or in being falsely nice to each other; maybe it's time to stop being so nice and perhaps get real! Of course, the golden rule is always: 'treat people as you would like to be treated yourself' but if we are honest there is so much scope to help our fellow man (and woman!) in that commandment.

Christianity in England has this kind of perception; a 'niceness' above everything else, where if you know how to be overly nice, and you take tea with the vicar, well you're on a one-way ticket to heaven! It isn't reaching out to the dispossessed, the poor, the homeless, the lost, and we must remember that when Jesus was on earth, He was more concerned with the lost sheep than the spiritually self-satisfied.

Posted By: Tim Childs | October 11, 2011 11:47 AM

The first comment probably shouldn't be from a guy. But I have 5 minutes to I will comment.

I like breaking stereotypes. I did not embrace evangelical label at Wheaton, but I did at University of Chicago. At Wheaton I embraced democrat. I worked for an SBC association but primarily among minority churches.

Now I am a full time nanny (with 2 masters degrees). My wife has always made more money than me, usually about twice as much.

I get annoyed when our church brings in speakers that match their stereotypes. (Couples where the wife is blond and a bit flighty and the husband wants to always solve her problems and doesn't want to listen to her feelings.)

In spite of that, I am increasingly realizing that stereotypes are not all bad. There are real couples that are like those stereotypes and even if I am not, I probably can learn something from them anyway.

I still want to break stereotypes so that people that do not fit the stereotype can find a place too.

Posted By: Adam Shields | October 11, 2011 11:56 AM

Very well said. And you don't have to be a 20 something to feel that women's ministry is just fluff. For those of us who are fairly new Christians, but older, we often feel the same frustration; "I thought there would be more...." Sure, there are times and places for the tea parties, as you stated. I think the point here is that we need to keep the women's ministry as a flexible, moveable, and spontaneous entity.

I have not been to a "women's" event in years. One, I work full-time during the day and by evening time I am exhausted and don't want to go anywhere. Two, I have never had children so frankly, it bores me to tears to listen to the other women prattle on and on about their kids. And three, I could not stand the bunny fluff either. I wanted meat and there was none to be had. The few times I did attend a women's event we ate, did a craft, had a brief bible study that resembled the canned Sunday School presentations I've grown so tired of, then we talked and visited about fluffy stuff. It really could have just been called a girls night out. It certainly wasn't a ministry; at least not in the way I was thinking.

There must be niche of women out there who desire to gather together and get real, get involved in the community and make a difference, no matter how slight in someone's life. I will say that a big kudos goes to one small church I attended. Those ladies were making baby quilts for the children's hospital. They received a letter from the director of the hospital thanking them for the quilts and stating how touched the parents were that their baby or child had a beautiful homemade quilt made by strangers who cared, instead of hospital blankets. Each quilt was prayed over before it was delivered. That was one cool ministry!

Anyway, thank you for bringing light to this issue. It makes me just feel better knowing others feel the same as me.

Posted By: Lorrie | October 11, 2011 12:05 PM

interesting article. I believe we do tend to broad stroke women's ministries but truth be told I would not attend. Although I am aware that there will always be an audience for women's ministry, I would prefer to be integrated in the church as a whole...not set to one side.

women who are leaders in the church, especially those who are young do not understand this. I'm 47 and I do not find value in or around women's ministry. Now put me in a group of 2/3 women...look at scripture, pray and ask each other tough questions...that I would do all day long.

I think the sustainability of women's ministry in general in one with a shelf life. women will continue to gather, but I think we miss out when expect this is the only way women come together.

Posted By: tami | October 11, 2011 12:07 PM

Woo-hoo! I am sitting here cheering out loud! So good, so true! Thank you and please know that age has nothing to do with this desire! We all are tired of wasted mornings and evenings of gathering together for nonsense.
Yay, good job!

Posted By: Susie Klein | October 11, 2011 12:43 PM

Great piece. From a broader perspective I have become weary of this as a whole -- in men's ministries too. Although there are plenty of "good" curriculums out there, I am not motivated to go to a Bible study where we study someone's catch verses about a particular topic from their recently published book. I believe we can all sit down together and study the Bible directly, understand it, and appreciate its relevance to our own lives. There is a simplicity to that which I find renewing. Sorry to ramble. I love these posts.

Posted By: Steve | October 11, 2011 12:50 PM

"Undoubtedly, the younger generations of women want a different kind of women’s ministry, one that is Christ-centered, biblically based, and kingdom oriented."

As others have said above, it's not just the younger generations. Sitting down, diving into the word and praying together is what my wife and her friends go for. Not a bit of "“emotional fluff ... masquerading as Bible study” to be seen.

Great post, Sharon.

Cheers,
Tim

Posted By: Tim | October 11, 2011 1:36 PM

Thank you so much for being brave enough to write this for a public audience! I've said this for years. In fact, I lead women's retreats, seminars, etc. and always tell the one inviting me I am much more into spiritual disciplines, struggling with issues, silence & solitude, etc. Please don't expect me to make hats and jewelry. Sometimes that's what the host church still does, but when I speak that's not what they get from me. Thanks again!

Posted By: Dianne | October 11, 2011 2:06 PM

It was really interesting about what you said about 20-somethings not coming to women's ministry events. I am almost always the lone 20-something at women's functions at my church and in the Christian community in our area. It is hard for me to work up the motivation to come when no one is in my life situation: newly married and no kids. What I long for in those situations isn't necessarily to have more women my age but to have women who take an interest in where I'm at and care for me within that. I usually wind up feeling very left out; like I need to have kids and be about 5 or 10 years older to really be part of the group. I find it frustrating that there isn't really a place for my husband and I to go to feel supported in our season of life. Maybe we should just borrow a couple of kids each weekend? Just kidding :) I too desperately long for a cold glass of real community.

Posted By: Alison | October 11, 2011 2:12 PM

Excellent topic!

I too have given up on "women's ministries".

I'm a Christian. Not a special group known as "woman Christian."

But if you want some real life heroines to learn from may I suggest learning of the early Quaker women and early Holiness women.

It can revolutionize how you see women serving Christ, and how you see the church ministering not so much to women as through them.

Posted By: sarah | October 11, 2011 2:20 PM

So many wonderful women have been muzzled over the centuries because of the horrible mistranslation and misunderstanding of Paul's writings on women. "Women keep silent in the church..." etc. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, many strong scholars have reached the conclusion that that those verses, 1Cor 14:34, 35 were forgeries, added to the scriptures in early manuscripts between Paul's actual writing of them and their translation into Greek, and that his comments to Timothy in 1Timothy 2 were actually meant to say almost the exact opposite of how they have been interpreted. Paul had a strong love for the many women leaders he wrote about in his letters and wanted them to be well recognized. I hope that the church can get over the many terrible things that have been brought into it by the wolves in sheep's clothing over the centuries and once again become a strong force in this tired, hungry world.

Posted By: Keith | October 11, 2011 2:30 PM

It has always bothered me that so many churches have "women's ministries" but not "men's ministries" and leaders and pastors specifically for women but not for men as if men are the standard and we are the odd ones out. And I've never fit in with any of the things that seem to be done by women's ministries.

There is more to life than just gender. There is more to who a person is than just gender. Yes, gender is one facet of who we are, but it doesn't define who we are in terms of personality in easily definable ways. And for women who don't fit the stereotypes it can be really difficult to find a place in the church. The women's ministries don't suit you and the Bible studies that seem more like the kinds of things you would be interested in are exclusive to men.

Why don't we have more Bible studies geared towards things outside of gender or relationship status (as in couples studies or singles studies)? Why don't we have more inclusive studies where a specific book or topic is picked, and everyone interested is welcome to join in? And why aren't there more studies that deal with specific theological, philosophical, or social issues from a Biblical perspective or that help people get involved in the world?

Best Bible study I ever participated in was dealing with poverty. Not only did we get in depth into the Scriptures and Jesus' compassion for the poor, but we went to a homeless shelter and actually got involved and helped. The study was open to both men and women, young and old, and it was amazing.

Posted By: Anna | October 11, 2011 2:33 PM

Thank you so much for featuring some of my post here, Sharon. (It's both fun - and a bit weird!) I am thankful to see the conversation about womens' ministry and womanhood continuing and am learning from each commenter. Blessings!

Posted By: Sarah@EmergingMummy | October 11, 2011 2:33 PM

As one of those 20-somethings, I say yes and amen to this post. Church-hopping in a brand new city has shown me that the Church is losing us: too old for college ministry, singles that don't fit into the "young adult" ministry with all the new parents or newly weds... Surely there is some way that college-grads can stay as intensely plugged into church as they were before graduation without having to join small groups that look more like a nursery?

Posted By: Jen | October 11, 2011 2:37 PM

1. YES, every ministry must be rooted in and directed toward -- LIVING this amazing called the gospel. I've been rejecting cotton candy for years, but at the same time, I'm beginning to see that room for enjoyment and fun is good is all about 'glorifying God and enjoying him forever.' I think we need to be intentional to provide excellent, engaging study of Scripture and enjoyable, playful times that appeal broadly to women across generations. Thank you for this article -- i'm going to share it with our team!

Posted By: Elizabeth Turnage | October 11, 2011 2:43 PM

While I think that the desire for meat when milk is the only thing being offered is present throughout Christendom (I think of my mixed-gender small group as I type this), in my experience the women's ministries are very much in need. The format isn't important to me, but the teaching is. I have attended women's teas that were theologically deep and called the attendees to missions; I have attended women's "Bible studies" where the Bible was only opened to read one verse and the rest of the time was spent discussing menopause (I am in my 20's and didn't find that helpful). The biggest problem that I see is that so many churches have a mixed-gender Bible study until a women's ministry is formed, then the women are essentially banned from what is still supposed to be a mixed-gender Bible study because "we have a women's group now." Then the men get to do in-depth study of the Bible and the women are supposed to be happy with crafts and discussion of "women's issues."

Posted By: Amanda | October 11, 2011 2:48 PM

20-30-40-50-60 something ... I applaud the premise but don't believe it has to do with age. Women's ministry becomes meaningful when you follow Christ's directive. Women should continue to gather for crafts and fuzzy bunny slippers (although I like those!) but call it what it is and don't disguise it as ministry. Someone said above - give me the meat and potatoes. I say Here Here and make mine medium rare. Give me deep, meaningful ministry (male or female) that you can sink your teeth into - that rips at your heart - that causes change from within. That ministry comes when you have leaders and membership that are truly walking with Christ and have the ability to disciple others - no matter their age.

Posted By: Felecia@ALifeSanctified | October 11, 2011 3:13 PM

Good thinking but I would like to add that it isn't just "young" women who want a different style of Women's Bible Studies, ministry, etc. I'm 76 and have tried to encourage this all my life. I'm a seminary graduate (1960) so you can see I've been serious about the fact that women really do want deeper truth for a long time. Let's keep encouraging women to wrestle with God's Word in the light of day to day living.

Posted By: Dorothy McKissick | October 11, 2011 3:45 PM

We act like this is a fairly new phenomena, but I remember as a child in the 70s my mom going to things with other women her age that were supposed to be missions, but instead this fluff was happening. She didn't like it either and joined a group of older ladies who studied missions and what the Bible teaches about missions. It seems to me that while all of us are called to follow the Great Commission, some of us just aren't ready for whatever reason. So, it follows that both types of ministry are needed and not just for women. There are Men's Ministries out there - Anna. But I think they fall into the same trap that our gender has.

There will always be those out there who crave the fluff, because the meat is too much. And there will always be those out there who crave the meat, because the fluff isn't enough. We shouldn't punish either group by not meeting their needs. I have seen this happen all too often in churches. I have seen splits happen because of these issues. And usually it's the meat wanters that leave to go find another church where they can learn and participate in the meat of the church. The meat wanters are getting pushed aside, so that the fluff wanters can prevail.

We, meat wanters, have to stand up to our church leaders (who are mostly male, at least in my denomination-unless they are Women's Ministry Leaders) and refuse to be ignored. Otherwise, in a 100 years or maybe less, there won't be a Church. The women will no longer have a theologically strong enough background to know what to do, because they will have had generations of fluff instead of meat. Historically in times of crisis, women have been the ones who have held the churches together and I don't think they did it with knitting needles and scrapbook glue, either.

Posted By: CR | October 11, 2011 4:38 PM

CR hits it right on target -- there have always been milk drinkers and meat wanters.

So, how do we co-exist and love each other and build each other up without vomiting what the other offers?

I've come to appreciate small talk and the talent some have for this. I am not good at small talk at all. I want to talk about Jesus and the deep stuff of scripture but small talk has its place. I think Jesus was a great small talker when it was necessary -- though He got (and still does) right to the heart of the matter all the time.

It is hard to do what CR says -- to refuse to be ignored. You try and try to get some deep teaching in the church and it is easy to get frustrated. But let me put something out there to think about. We who love to study the Word will continue to do this no matter what because we love doing it. But there will always be some who are satisfied to just be a bare-bones Christian. And they will fight in attitude or some other way if they see your fire. So, here's the question: will you keep loving God's people no matter what? Even when they are petty and superficial and content with a bit of milk?

Posted By: Jane Hinrichs | October 11, 2011 5:24 PM

I appreciated Emerging Mummy's post, but I definitely thought something was lacking. I am a 20-something, and I don't engage in typical women's ministry-things. However, I have been matured and mentored by women in my church who DO take part in things like bake sales and crochet circles. For me, I relish the deep one-on-one conversations and prayers I have had with these women. I don't need a specific ministry tailored toward my age group; I just want relationships. And I have found that in my church, which is NOT a church geared toward the hipster generation.

I would also like to say that this is one major reason why I am an avid reader of her.meneutics. Your writers go beyond the stereotypes of women, Christianity, and women IN Christianity, and I find this blog to be enlightening for mind, spirit, and heart.

Posted By: even one sparrow | October 11, 2011 6:25 PM

Ditto, ditto, and ditto. Since my 20s, as a young-in-Christ believer, and now well into my 50s, I have been stunned and disappointed by the fluff, by cute stuff and shallow studies and teaching. As an occasional conference speaker, I have been amazed at how much TIME women spend putting together all that fluff, making everything so much harder than it needs to be.

Joyfully for me, at 29 I discovered Bible Study Fellowship. Straight and thoughtful Bible study, same materials used whether the class is for men or women, in local settings all over the world. Solid leader training. (No, they don't use video tapes, but actually understand that local women are able to teach, too.)

I love time with just women. Moreso as I grow older, surprisingly. But I want to talk about things that matter, to be challenged to follow my Lord more faithfully, and to encourage others to do the same. Fellowship. Discipleship. Preparation and training for real life and ministry.

Thanks for bringing this topic out for discussion.

Posted By: Jeri Bidinger | October 11, 2011 6:29 PM

I absolutely love this article! I am a 50-something and I've been involved in women's ministry for many years as a leader, writer, speaker and trainer. In my younger years I was involved in professional off road car racing, so I have always yearned for something more out of women's ministry. More reality, more raw, messy life and the deeper, more intense connections with each other and with God that come when we are willing to move past the superficial.

So earlier this year, along with a few other like minded gals, I started working on breaking the mold. We are in the process right now of putting together a women's ministry that will be no one woman show and no fluff. It will be multi-generational, interactive, and representative of the Body of Christ. We WILL give the microphone to the lady with the apples. I can't tell you how encouraged I am to read the comments here and to know that the Lord is leading us on the right path. Thanks for the encouragement Sharon to forge ahead and break the stereotype of women's ministry! We are on it!

Posted By: Linda | October 11, 2011 7:04 PM

OK I am a male, but I want to comment. I hold a mixed group Bible study for men and women. I must confess it is mostly men but about 25% female. Next door is a womens study. It usually goes a little longer than our group. Very often as I am cleaning up after our meeting I over hear what is being said next door. It is almost always a discussion based on psycology, not theology. Many of the popular women leaders are teaching psycology and do not explain things from a Christ centered viewpoint. Joyce Meyer and Beth Moore come to mind as writers more involved in human relationships rather than understanding God or our fallen human nature. I know that men are also taken captive this way too. We need to get back to teaching Biblical doctrine and theology in the church, for women and men.

Posted By: William Reed | October 12, 2011 9:19 AM

William Reed, I don't know about Joyce Meyer (except what I read in reviews, and that has convinced me that her teachings are better left unread), but I have done a Beth Moore study on video with my wife. It was an expository study on Daniel, and there is no way I would say that study was "more involved in human relationships rather than understanding God or our fallen human nature." Quite the opposite actually. It was all about understanding the awesomeness of God and the depravity of our fallen human nature.

Cheers,
Tim

Posted By: Tim | October 12, 2011 10:08 AM

I've mostly avoided women's ministries because I sincerely believe everything the church has to offer me as a woman, it also has to offer my husband as a man. I worry when something is targeted just at women, it will be full of stereotypes I don't fit. Of course, I'm happy to attend (well, not always happy but willing) a girls-only bridal or baby shower, or even an occasional event designed to pass down traditional women's skills like ethnic baking traditions. But these events are unabashedly a part of our culture, not a part of my theology.

Posted By: Bethany | October 12, 2011 10:16 AM

Women's ministry needs a revival where women are not afraid to be Godly women. the older women teaching the younger generation to love their husbands, children, be homemakers and stop being dictated by the world they need to be equal to men. I suggest reading Debbi Pearl's "Created to be His helpmeet" for a starter.
God has elevated women far beyond their pagan and Muslim counterparts but rather than embracing biblical femininity they have adopted Godless feminism. Women are joint heirs with specific roles that many are abandoning to lead in an area they are to be serving their husbands. I admit this is in a great part because the men have failed, but this does not mean we contextualize away the truth of the gospel. Truly we are in an age where people will not endure sound doctrine as demonstrated by this blog which desires to minister questions which attack the validity of the word rather than encouraging women to be biblical and meek.

Posted By: Brother Raymond | October 12, 2011 1:22 PM

Raymond wrote: "... they have adopted Godless feminism."

Seriously? Anyone who fails to embrace your understanding of the Bible's teaching on women has embraced godlessness? What a scurrilous slander on God's children.

Cheers,
Tim

Posted By: Tim | October 12, 2011 3:29 PM

I meekly submit this response to Brother Raymond, "Are kidding me?"

Posted By: trixie b | October 12, 2011 3:38 PM

In my Methodist church, I much prefer the mixed Bible studies because they are so much "meatier" than the women's groups. Yep, fluffy. If anyone else here is Methodist, try the Disciple Bible studies - good stuff.

Posted By: K. | October 12, 2011 8:07 PM

Great article!

In short, when Christians are not stretched to see God for all that he is, to cultivate an intimate relationship with him, to know his Word and to allow it to set them free, we all as a Church and witnesses to the lost world suffer. Far too long, women have hidden been roles and stereotypes instead of embracing their primary calling as God's daughters. Time is out for neglecting who we are and what God has called us to do. Time is out for enabling weakness in the body of Christ. Woman does not mean an endorsement for ignorance: http://asistasjourney.com/2011/04/20/leadership-why-are-ignorant-women-accepted-here/

Blessings, Natasha

Posted By: Natasha Robinson | October 12, 2011 8:58 PM

Which biblical feminity do you mean Raymond? Deborah? Abigail? Miriam? Junia? Priscilla? Lydia?

The "ezer" that God intends a woman to be in her partnership with a man is not a matter of being "under authority" but of a man and woman being uniquely suited to partner together as co-regents and image bearers for God's kingdom and His glory. The gospel speaks to freedom in Christ, it does not have to be ruled by the cultural entailments of either male domination or of female reactionism.
Meekness is a beautiful quality demonstrated by Jesus Himself, it is not the domain of a particular model of femininity.

Posted By: Carol | October 12, 2011 9:25 PM

Whose job is it to provide a women's ministry that meets everyone's needs and approval? We are the church. I started a very small women's study over 30 years ago because I needed it. Over the years it has developed into about 4 or 5 varied studies offered at different times throughout the week. We have never studied "fluff" and have always sought out meat. It sometimes took hours camped out in a Christian bookstore reviewing materials. At times we wrote our own studies. The Beth Moore studies and others have been a real blessing with indepth studies that stress application and changed lives. These video studies have made it possible for many more women, who may not be gifted to write and/or teach studies, to facilitate studies. I believe that women grow in these studies because of the personal workbook assignments, the group discussions, and the relationships formed with other women in the group. Women need other women, and women's ministries can provide opportunities for study, fellowship and service. I agree it is a challenge in our culture, but can be accomplished by building planning teams that represent various ages and backgrounds. There are many resources, seminars, websites available: Kyria.com and Lifeway.com are excellent. Interfacing with other churches and church websites can also yield some good ideas. It just takes time and a little research.

Posted By: Linda | October 12, 2011 9:57 PM

You get these shocked responses anytime someone speaks about a women's role. It is a serious sign of the infection of feminism into the body of Christ. What biblical feminism do I mean? Man was not created for women but women for man. The man was not deceived but the women. Women are the heart of strong homes where the men are to lead and be revered and honored as the women would of Jesus. If this makes you cringe its shows how little respect you have for the scripture. And I do not say this in the spirit of meanness but as a testing ground for your hear. Are you daughters of Sarah or Jezebel?

"4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. " Titus 2:4-5

"3 Do not let your beauty be that outward adorning of arranging the hair, of wearing gold, or of putting on fine apparel;
4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.
5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands,
6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror. " 1 Peter 3:3-6

"23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. " Ephesians 5:23-24

To the sister who said "God intends a woman to be in her partnership with a man is not a matter of being "under authority" but of a man and woman being uniquely suited to partner together as co-regents and image bearers for God's kingdom and His glory" You are twisting scripture and God's ideal for women. If women are to submit to the husband as the Church is to Christ is the church a co-regent? Does the church stand on equal footing with Christ in matters of authority. I think not sister. You have the poison of Feminism in your heart. We need God fearing, Holy, Meek, unafraid to be submitted women who know their true source of power is in obedience to Christ. That would be a true family revolution rather than focusing on defining marriage in the culture. The church needs to discipline rebellious women and neglectful husbands and not cater to a culture hostile to the ways of God. Women need to take up their helm at the home and stop abandoning their children to be taught by atheist in the public school systems. You are abandoning your post if you seek your own career to the neglect of your children. We are losing the culture battle because even those women who profess to be Godly scoff at the word of God and follow their own folly. Lord revive us!

Posted By: Brother Raymond | October 12, 2011 10:48 PM

In my Methodist church we don't do fluff. We do have some separate classes for women -- and some for men-- but also have mixed classes. One reason some women prefer women only classes is to give all the women a chance to speak. Unfortunately men often take over a class when men and women are together. Some women still have a tendency to defer to masculine opinions.
Do take Christian Believer or the Disciple classes when possible.
Beth Moore grounds her courses on the Bible. An ordained man who teaches a Sunda Schoool class in my church has more psychology based theology than Beth Moore does.
We have social groups for fluff.

Posted By: Nancy | October 13, 2011 7:24 AM

It's always an easy out to accuse someone of twisting scripture. Our task is to look at the entire testimony of scripture, from beginning to end, and see how God is at work. In the beginning, Genesis 1, God created man and woman in His image, blessed them and gave them (not just Adam) the charge to fill the earth, subdue it and rule it. Throughout time and culture God has been at work to redeem His beloved but fallen creatures from the sad state of their sinfulness. That includes relationships which were marred and made unrecognizable from God's original intent. Compatible, complementary, and equal, working together for God's glory without regard for selfish notions of power or authority. The focus is Christ-like servanthood wherever and however God asks it of us.

Posted By: carol | October 13, 2011 7:44 AM

I have sat in so many Bible studies where one lady will start off with a sob story, and then all the other ladies want to share. It's so frustrating - I just want to dig into the Scripture and have meaningful discussions!

Posted By: Kalyn | October 13, 2011 4:22 PM

I was avoiding women's ministry too. Then the light went on. I myself simply started up a real Bible study! The response was wonderful. Especially during the summer, I was amazed at the diversity in our age range, stage of life, and educational background. Teenage high school girls came with grandma. A woman from another church who really didn't know Christ at all. An 86 year old widow. A young mother. A college girl, and one just out of college. A truckdriver. A university professor. And we study the Bible. We pray. I won't speak for the others, but it has been good for me!

Posted By: bethann | October 14, 2011 7:07 AM

Really interesting discussion here but can you tell me this: why do we need to have separate women's ministry at all? I appreciate there are a few occasions when it's better to be gender exclusive but they are few and far between. All the 'meat' I can get in regular church.
I am baffled as to why we are trying to promote gender exclusive ministries. I am beginning to think the reason why women ministry is being pushed so much is to allow those women who are gifted as preachers/teachers a place in which to exercise their gifts because otherwise they go to waste in regular church - focusing on women teaching women is seen as laudable but this surely is not what Paul meant when he told Titus that the older women should teach the younger women - that was teaching firmly set in the sphere of relationships within the home.
Gender exclusive groups are now becoming the fashion for egalitarians as well - I can see no reason why other than it is a smaller pond for women who are leaders to swim in - because they are leaders women are following them like sheep encouraged by male leaders who are encouraging men to have their own specific ministries.
I am really struggling with this one - what is special about Biblical study that I have to learn it amongst women? What is my husband being taught that I don't need to hear? Surely anything that serves to divide the genders any more than they are already divided should be shunned not promoted?

Posted By: Ali | October 14, 2011 7:43 AM

Ali, I couldn't agree more. I stopped going to "men's ministry" (a term and concept I have not yet found in the Bible) events long ago.

Tim

Posted By: Tim | October 14, 2011 8:30 AM

Stereotypes are good, if they conform to God's Word. Some want to break stereotypes just because they don't like the 'status quo'. That's danger if it's God's status quo.

I agree with the idea pursuing real discipleship. May I suggest ladies please don't focus exclusively on 'ministy' or doing good deeds as the article above seems to indicate that is needed. don't forget 'exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin'.

This is the aspect I think is missing in many churches and relationships today. Feeding the poor and outreach of all kinds is the sum of all discipleship in some circles, where repenting of sin and 'putting off' the old man (woman!) is dismissed, it might hurt our all important 'self esteem'.

Posted By: John | October 14, 2011 9:22 AM

Is there any biblical reason fellowship needs to be divided by gender? The most dynamic bible studies I've taken part in have included both men and women.

The truth is, I thought it was just me who had this problem. I grew up as a bit of a tomboy who loved to go hiking, rifle shooting and drag racing with my father and younger brother. When I got into college, I still preferred hanging out with the guys, and even chose a profession (computer science) that entailed working primarily with men.

Not until I became a stay-at-home mom in my mid-30s did I realize how awful women's Bible studies were. For me, it isn't the content of the study that's the problem. Though I have one-on-one friendships with women that I treasure (often fellow tomboys), nothing quite says boring to me like sitting around chatting with a room full of women.

But it isn't just women that have a problem with this. My husband hates men's ministry, too, for similar reasons: they shoot for the NASCAR dad stereotype that he doesn't fit in with, and often discuss sports (which he's not much of a fan of) instead of the Bible.

Posted By: Megan | October 14, 2011 11:18 AM

I just have to say, in defense of women's ministry, that our church has an incredible ministry to women that involves outstanding bible studies, outreach, evangelism, mentoring, etc. Yes, sometimes there are social activities with cutesy names to encourage fellowship. But I have been amazed by the depth of biblical knowledge and the desire to learn God's word by the women in my small group. And the amount of scripture some of the older women have memorized is both humbling and inspiring. Sure, sometimes we cry as we share prayer requests, but who cares? That seems real and authentic to me. I am afraid this author is making some sweeping generalizations and insulting some women's ministries that are highly effective.

Posted By: Amy | October 14, 2011 1:13 PM

I have started women's Bible studies in response to what I have seen are needs, for confronting gracelessness, for digging deep into Scripture passages, for providing a safe place to be honest and receive godly counsel, for prayer support. I have written studies for these women as well as using excellent resources and now co-write in-depth studies with my head pastor that are available for all the small groups of the church. But now that I am beginning a speaking ministry, I confess that I am gearing my messages towards women. I am conservative theologically and attend a church that has no women in acknowledged leadership, and so perhaps never considered creating an event for both men and women. This is challenging my thinking about that. But rarely do I see an event that is marketed to both men and women unless it has a marriage enrichment function. Perhaps it is time for that to change. I try to engage several learning styles, and even use simple crafts for tactile learning to reinforce the topic on which I am speaking. Most women of all ages who attend indicate the value of these tools to learning and remembering the lessons. These are good thoughts and I thank you for sharing them with us.

Posted By: Zona | October 14, 2011 2:06 PM

Zona
I suppose that if you are in a conservative setting then you - or your pastor - may not feel it appropriate for you to speak to men but I am interested to know in what way you feel you are gearing your message towards women rather than men. Do you think that your message would sound very different if you were speaking to both genders?
Do you think that having separate ministries in a church is beneficial and if so, in what way? Are there any disadvantages? Hope you don't mind the questions - I really am trying to understand this issue in more depth. Thanks.

Posted By: Ali | October 14, 2011 3:40 PM

I stopped reading when you said that Beth Moore provides "in depth" Bible studies. She doesn't get any deeper than spiritual "salad". I'm looking for meat.

Posted By: Beth | October 14, 2011 9:18 PM

In reading this article and reading all the comments...I hate to even comment because I feel I'm way out of my league. I hear a lot of you talking about fluff, gender specific get togethers, meat and potatos, etc. We do have some events that several would consider fluff by looking on the outside but if you are on the inside...they have definitely been heart changing events. The "fluff" things we do include prayer and relational growth. Sometimes the "fluff" things will bring in those who need Jesus where the meat and potatos are way beyond them. As for the gender specific things....a woman will generally not feel comfortable with sharing her heart when a man is in the room. Some of our "fluff" evnts open the door for genuine sharing and prayer opportunities. Yes...sharing is a part of disciple making. All I'm trying to say is that I feel that it includes all of it....the meat and potato Bible study and the "fluff" relationship building.

Posted By: Jeana | October 15, 2011 10:43 AM

I feel very blessed to have a church with wonderful women's studies. We have indepth discussions and prayer time. My church offers classes for both genders or classes for both men and women. We have a diverse selection. It is not even a big church. We are very much a family.

Posted By: Kelsey | October 15, 2011 2:15 PM

I enjoyed the article and the comments that I had time to read. I have been a pastor's wife for almost 20 years and what I am hearing is consistent with what I have heard in all my years of ministry. Something that I believe the Lord has taught me in dealing with issues of life is to always get to the heart of the matter. When I am desiring to reach out to the women in my church, I have to ask myself: "Where are they REALLY in their life? What is their walk with the Lord like? What is their marriage like? What is their witness at work like? How is their parenting and their children, as a result?" Those kinds of questions are at the core of our day to day living. And I believe that that is where women are wanting to be challenged and encouraged and spurred on. In Women's ministry, there are a number of things that we can plan to do, but if the core heart issues are not our main concern, then our women will begin to feel empty and too "fluffed". I don't mean some of those "girl's nights" aren't good. They are very good, but only if the heart issues are being talked about (at other times) and in dealing with the heart issues their is accountability and confrontation. What good does it do if we are greatly challenged from a speaker and go away not making any change. We women need other women in our lives who care about our obedience to the Lord and will point out when we are not being obedient. That is the real "meat" of the Christian life. Remember, "God looks at the heart...". That is what is the challenge, when we are lovingly pressured through confrontation that brings conviction. And that loving confrontation can't come if we are not truly desiring to see our fellow women friends truly grow in the Lord. We are in a generation that is afraid to say the truth to one another. But we will think it and tell it to others. When your fellow sister in Christ could very well be thankful that you cared enough to bring to them the disobedience you saw in their life. And at the same time showing them that you're not perfect, either, but you are on their side and will be a support and encouragement as they struggle to obey. This is what the Lord intended for His body. This is the spurring on one another, the encouraging one another, the exhorting one another. If this isn't happening in any kind of fellowship, then we will, eventually, leave feeling empty. True fulfillment comes from Christ making changes in our lives.

Posted By: Mindi Green | October 15, 2011 2:38 PM

I completely 'get' that there are times when women want to talk to other women without men around - there are a few things that I will not generally share with men (but those I would only share with very close female friends anyway) BUT no one is answering the real question: WHY do we want to have 'meaty' theological indepth Bible teaching in the absence of men? I just don't get it and as no one has even attempted a response to that question I am beginning to think there isn't one.
Look - the men in our church are our brothers in Christ and if we don't spend time with them as people then we are doing both them and ourselves a massive disservice.
Let's build good relationships regardless of gender, let's encourage and exhort each other regardless of gender, let's cross the gender divide whenever we can because it's only by being in relationship with all people in the church that the church is truly united, at one with each other.
Why are we wasting time and resources promoting gender exclusive ministries that promote the divisions in churches that serve to make us feel comfortable yet do nothing to promote the gospel of reconciliation? If you need the women only stuff for particularly vulnerable groups of women then fine but it shouldn't be the norm! Those of us who aren't vulnerable around men should be setting the example of normative relationships with men not encouraging gender division. At least at the moment we learn the meaty stuff together - what happens when we don't even need men around to do that with? Will we start to have men only and women only church on a Sunday morning?
Am I the only woman here who feels deeply uncomfortable with the premise that a ministry that wouldn't allow Jesus to be part of it should he appear in human form because he is male, is something that should be encouraged? Honestly sisters - there is something really radically wrong about all this!

Posted By: Ali | October 16, 2011 10:04 AM

The clear answer to why we need separate training and teaching times for women is this: Scripture commands that older women (that is a certain kind of older woman whose qualifications are spelled out in Titus 2) are first to be taught by church elders and then are to train younger women in seven specific behaviors and roles. Some of these roles are exclusively for women, i.e. loving and submitting to their own husbands. As God designed it, men and women are not the same, nor are all of their roles and responsibilities the same. This is why there are times when they need to be taught separately. In His wisdom, God ordained that the male leaders of the church be restricted from teaching the younger women and reserved this important role for the spiritually mature women.
I, too, for many years avoided fluffy women's events like the plague, preferring mixed meetings and saying I could only find discipleship of the whole church in Scripture, and no mention of women's ministry. I had overlooked the key text already quoted in Titus 2. This is one of several texts written specifically for us women. It is our job description and, from some of the comments above, it is apparent that the renewal of the mind that will result from a deep study of and obedience to this Scripture is greatly needed today.

Posted By: Jo | October 16, 2011 9:51 PM

Good point about the destructive criticism and I have been guilty. But for those of us who don’t fit a traditional mold, it’s frustrating when churches only offer one type of women’s ministry regardless of how the demographic in their church changes. But that’s true of some churches with all of their ministries. Some just tend to wear blinders more than others and refuse to stay current. Too often groups become set in their ways and with their group of people and don’t want to lose what they have. But we’re sacrificing growth in the body for the comfort of familiarity (read clique).

I agree with the point about a tea party just might minister to a certain group of women and that’s fine. But in churches that have a large group of women and resources to spare, why not diversify? Have a group that meets for tea parties, but have a group for serious, in-depth Bible study. Have something geared towards career women. Better yet, don’t shun the women who don’t come to women’s ministry events because they choose to immerse themselves in the Body in other ways. Everyone only has so much time on their hands and if they’re not interested in the women’s ministry, they should feel free to do other things within the church that ministers to them and allows them to grow and help others.

Posted By: Pat Pope | October 16, 2011 10:49 PM

Interesting, interesting. Confirms my thoughts that ministry is contextual(what works in one place doesn't necessarily work in another). What works in your place - what does it mean to give up something for the sake of the other? Paul asks that the strong give way for the weak - Bible study? Are you willing to get into the historical background of a Bible verse, willing to set it into the context of the time it was written and then talk about what it may mean today? Are you willing to get into the theological perspectives that inform how one reads the Bible? Willing to learn rather than state an opinion?

Is there wisdom in women getting together to share their own spiritual journey without being judged or embarrassed by sharing deeply with men present? Learning about the seasons of their lives (as mothers, grandmothers, working outside the home, treating other with respect and grace, speaking up etc.) What does it mean to serve Jesus in work, home, and society? What does it mean to think about other faiths and to live side by side with them in our communities? Who will teach/encourage women this way?

Posted By: Renee S | October 17, 2011 9:41 AM

Many years ago I felt a bit guilty because I never went to the women's meetings in my church. So I went. Once. The ladies must have spent 10 minutes discussing what kind of jello to bring to some event, and more time discussing whose group the newcomer should be in based on locale. Ya-a-a-w-w-w-wn. Fast forward to my new church about 30 years. I didn't go to the recent women's retreat. I decided I didn't want to learn how to make a perfect pie crust or how to sew on a button and other simple sewing projects. No joke.

Posted By: Jo | October 18, 2011 2:15 PM

I totally agree! I think a lot of the women's ministries that I have attended are lacking the Holy Spirit. Many of the instructors are just a part of the church "clique" and feel obligated to do it. I watched one instructor constantly profess to the audience that she "can't" live holy! While giving shout outs to all of her supporters. Face full of make-up, earrings all of her ears, zumba class going, no LOVE, lady that did not exemplify a woman of God at all! Trying to make herself cry to get a buzz out of the audience!!! That was it! No more of this...

Please ladies, let's get real! Jesus is soon to come. I would much rather we discuss a few verses, share testimonies regarding that verse, pray and lay hands on the sick and hurting compared to listening to an emotional housewife who pulled a lot of scriptures from a book or the internet to bombard the ladies Bible Study. No one can digest all those scriptures at one time! Holy Spirt - pure worshippers, where are they???

Posted By: Monique | October 19, 2011 7:10 AM

It is the current 30-somethings that, in my opinion, dumbed down the women's ministries at our church. The middle-agers had done a great job of moving women's events and classes into a more meatier venue, and then the younger gals came along, took the reigns and turned us into a bunko-make-a-cutsie-craft culture. I'm sorry, but even my preschoolers do not need a craft project in every Bible class and I certainly do not either, but if I choose not to do the craft, I'm labeled as stand-offish. Race for the cure is a worthy cause, but it's not exactly Kingdom business. And wine club? Sorry, but that IS NOT a ministry. It's not the age of the women that dictate the trajectory in women's ministry--it's the ones with the most forceful personalities. And sadly, those personalities are not necessarily the most spirit-filled humble ones.

Posted By: El | October 21, 2011 7:12 PM

So sad that the idea of women's ministry is limited to "fluff" and "meat." In reality we are called as Christian's to the abundant life...and that implies balance. Within the body of Christ we are called to recognize the value of all parts and those parts are all different. When planning a ministry (of any kind) we should consider our relationship to God (Bible Study, prayer, practice of spiritual disciplines), the body of Christ (worship, social events) and the community (outreach to the community and world).

I don't see that described in ANY of these posts-including the original Emerging Mummy...or ANY of the Facebook links to this article. So sad that we have all missed the value of diversity and honoring differences.

On another note, I still remember the Tuesday morning ladies Bible class. No fluff there! EVERYONE came prepared to discuss the text (scripture not a book) and the teacher was really a facilitator. When did women's Bible studies change? In my observation it was in the '70's & '80's when so many women were in rebellion in society and brought it to the body as well. I saw the shift to the bunny slippers and crafts...and now I am witnessing another shift (praising God!).

Let's be kind and thoughtful of each other. The image of Christ is not rude but tender and loving. Let's use that model!

Posted By: Mom T | October 22, 2011 7:34 PM

I have to say that I get tired of hearing that I have done it wrong. I led women ministries at my church for 4 years, now in a supporting role. During that time my vision was to move into a deeper ministry. Do you know what opposition I faced? The older generation withdrew feeling that the ministry was no longer about them. The younger generation didn't have the time to commit to the deeper things, and those of us in between seem to carry the burden and fault of those discontent.
I don't know that women's ministry can be incapsulated by 'fluff' and 'meat.' Our role seems to have changed. I believe women ministry is now about helping women make connections to relationships that challenge them in the meat. And quite frankly, relationships are made over dessert and fun - 'the fluff.' I desire deep teaching, authenticity and vulnerability and attempt to do so in my talks on The difficulties of Women in Friendship. But relationships start on the shallow side and grow to depth by the commonalities and the burdens we share together. Women's Ministry is fluff and other stuff but it is not only stuff :)

Posted By: Cheryl Meakins | October 24, 2011 3:29 PM

I have often felt alienated by the whole idea that women need a separate ministry. It hasn't helped that many of the Bible Studies and women's events I've attended over the years have been fluffy and superficial, but I've also felt repulsed by the whole idea that I need to be kept and dealt with separately. I don't just want real meat, I want to have that meat with both my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Posted By: Sharon | October 29, 2011 11:50 AM

As a man and a bible teacher these comments are very interesting. What I am wondering is this...how much "fluff" is being taught from the pulpits of some of these churches? Could that be the trickle down reason that some women's ministries don't have any meat? And, btw, don't we need both in depth teaching AND relational interaction that leads to in depth sharing? (Yup, men do it too, but while watching a game or helping a brother with a house project, etc). Our individual spiritual gifts many times influence our view of what is needed in the body of Christ. If something is not detrimental to our walk and spiritual growth, leave it alone if it isn't for you. Bring something else ALONGSIDE of an existing ministry that may fill the void for you and others. And if you are in a place where this is not accepted, pray. Maybe God wants to move you somewhere else to be spiritually challenged. The first century church grew because of intimate gatherings in the homes of believers coupled with the willingness to endure through trials and persecutions. During those times the fluff for a out the window, the relationships built in "fluff" times remain and the meat time pays off.

Posted By: glenn w | October 30, 2011 9:01 AM

Maybe one reason we have so many "fluffy" studies is because women have been de-valued as true ministers. Check out my post at www.stayinginhope.blogspot.com/The Value of Women.

Posted By: RJ Thesman | November 18, 2011 11:35 AM

It was really refreshing to read this. I am glad there are women in ministry that are looking beyond the cliche. To be honest, I no longer subscribe to any religious beliefs and I do have to say that fluffy, bogus, surface women's ministry gave me a big push toward the shiny red exit door. It has soured me toward organized religion. I didn't feel like there was a place for a woman like me among the men or the women and I craved equilibrium among the emotional pendulum swing of crazy meltdown weekends. House wiver-ey, mate locating, and uterine pep talks about pushing out a baby was enough to drive a rift between me and the church. There are real issues in the world beyond stain removal and easter bonnets and I was unapologetic about wanting to see bigger things happen in the world. I just wanted to throw some perspective into the mix about the revolutionizing of women's ministry. Good luck in taking on that challenge...

Posted By: Holly | March 6, 2012 6:17 PM

Don't have enough money to buy some real estate? Worry not, just because it's achievable to take the personal loans to solve such problems. Thus take a bank loan to buy everything you want.

Posted By: Leta23Strong | March 30, 2012 11:37 PM

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