Hermenuetics

Comments

Good insights, Mary. I especially like this line: "Those who obey, then 'fail,' yet rise up again to trust God for worth and life and hope, measure that as success." Whether a ministry succeeds or not is always up to God, and what constitutes success is always up to him as well.

Cheers,
Tim

Posted By: Tim | December 1, 2011 11:28 AM

Thank you, Mary, for pointing out that following Christ is not a formula for success. I've been called into many different ministries over the years, and I've had times when I've followed God and watched that ministry blossom and multiply. I've also had others when I've done exactly the same thing and it felt like pushing a boulder uphill, with few visible signs of His blessing. I've had ministries I've had to let go of and walk away, wondering where I went wrong. I see now that my expectations were faulty. I think it's only human to expect to see the fruit of God's calling, but the view from here sometimes looks like failure. It doesn't mean God wasn't/isn't at work, or that we misread God's message to us. Thank you for pointing out that God is also mystery, and His ways higher than ours. I needed this today.

Posted By: Leslea Linebarger | December 1, 2011 11:31 AM

Thank you, Mary, for writing about something I've also experienced - in a much more eloquent way than I could. My husband and I served overseas in Central Asia for two years, with no visible fruit yet, and then had to come back for health reasons. I had been preparing for that work since I was in high school, so to have it be so short was really difficult. We were obedient, but saw no signs of "success", so I definitely have to deal with feelings of failure. I still don't understand why things happened the way they did, but I choose to trust the Lord and follow Him.

Posted By: Jennifer O | December 1, 2011 11:48 AM

Mary, This is exactly what I needed to read today as I am part of a small Dakota church struggling within. Sometimes it seems it would be easier just to run away than deal with people, but God calls us to love our brothers and sisters and together we'll reach the world. Sometimes it is hard not to wonder a bit as you see huge mega ministries reaching so many people and then you look at your own which is so small. But this is looking at it with human eyes, not God's. We need to see the world through God's eyes, experience it through God's hands, His feet. This world is not our own. We dishonor God when we compare what He is doing in our lives and church to others. Thank you Mary.

Posted By: Jane Hinrichs | December 1, 2011 12:18 PM

I'm married to one of 1500 pastors who left their pulpit last year. It's been by far one of the most challenging times of our lives! We left church for missions and couldn't raise the $. Now we're drained ... in every way. What most don't understand is we don't feel like we missed God. We were grossly unsuccessful. And yet with God. Now just walking and looking for the next path so we can get our financial feet back under ourselves.
Good post. Thank you for sharing.

www.stephaniesikorski.blogspot.com

Posted By: Stephanie | December 1, 2011 12:44 PM

I have a problem with this. Jesus said "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself". The first sermon at pentecost brought 3000 to salvation. Peter's healing and next sermon brought the total to 5000. Philip, the deacon table-waiter, brought the whole city of Samaria to repentance. If people aren't getting saved, baptized in water and baptized in the Holy Spirit, I think there is a problem. It would definitely be a Biblical exception or a sign of overwhelming apostasy. The contemporary story of Heidi and Roland Baker is instructive. They have fostered over 15,000 churches in Mozambique, led over a million to salvation, sposored several orphanages. Yet their ministry was not always a success. They were failed, discouraged missionaries previously. Something happened to them.

Posted By: Rickd | December 1, 2011 12:50 PM

RickD, have you led over a million people to salvation? Neither have I. Neither did the Bakers, for that matter. The Holy Spirit did.

Have you fostered 15,000 churches (in Mozambique or anywhere else)? Neither have I.

Have you sponsored a single orphanage, let alone several? Again, I haven't.

Pointing to some of the more obvious examples of ministry success, whether from the Bible or in today's church, does not show this to be normative for all members of the kingdom of God. Faithfully following our Savior and trusting him to build his kingdom is what's normative according to Scripture.

Cheers,
Tim

Posted By: Tim | December 1, 2011 1:00 PM

If someone can be absolutely sure that God did provide millions of dollars to save their church they should also be ready to answer the question "What about the hundreds of other churches who didn't"

Posted By: Basil | December 1, 2011 1:04 PM

Thanks for this post, Mary.

I feel like these views of church "success" or "failure" are based on business principles. While surely there are some principles of running a business that could be relevant to a church setting, I think we have a tendency in the U.S. to take it way too far.

Posted By: Hannah | December 1, 2011 1:17 PM

Sometimes we read the story of the widow's mite and mistakenly think it applies only to money. We are to give out of our poverty - our financial poverty, our spiritual poverty, our emotional poverty. We are impoverish; it is only God who accomplishes anything.

The question of success is a worldly one. God desires us to be faithful with what we are given. I may be given only one lonely local child who comes to spend her days with me. I am to give to her, even if I am emotionally, spiritually, and financially impoverish. Likewise the church with thousands of congregants are to minister with every inch of what God has given them - it does not mean they are more "successful" , but rather God has given them a different thing.

Success, pawh, what is that anyway? Who knows on this side of heaven if they have found success? If I know Christ, what more success is there? If Christ wills me to be the instrument to save thousands, He is powerful enough to use me. But maybe I will be more like the widow who fed Elijah. What is success? Success is nothing, only each should make sure to be responsible with what God has presented them with.

Posted By: Elizabeth Erazo | December 1, 2011 1:19 PM

So Tim, the Bible is not normative, Biblical standards for ministry results don’t apply, what defines normal is your experience? Some are exceptionally gifted. Some are exceptionally blessed. Some are exceptionally used. But all should bear fruit, 30 fold, 60 fold, 100 fold...that is normal. As Watchman Nee put it, we are designed to be “Reproducers of reproducers”. It is easy to blame God if people aren’t saved. America’s apostasy is God’s fault. If I am not leading people to Jesus, perhaps it is because I am not being obediant is telling others, or perhaps I am not filled with the Spirit, or perhaps I am not faithfully representing Jesus. However I absolutely know that it is His desire that all should come to repentance. Often when there are no results (I’ve done this) we fall back on “I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.” However, each of those activities should produce results. Last month I watched a small team of 4 people lead 9 strangers to Jesus in 4 hours at a train stop. That same day 150 people (from 23 different churches) in Portland led 530 people to salvation on the streets of Portland. These were normal people, not evangelists. Explain to me how or why this happened?

Posted By: rickd | December 1, 2011 2:07 PM

Thank you so much for this article. I have been preaching for years this same thing, especially against those who believe one's faith is not strong enough if they are not healed. Or someone must not be stewarding their lives (especially financially) if they are growing richer in monetary concerns. These thoughts are not of God, nor are they theologically derived from His Word. We believe such things because we want control of understanding (i.e., cause and effect). Regarding the Lord's perfect will, we will often not understand His ways; a lot about our God doesn't make sense to us mere mortals (though Spirit-filled). We must trust and obey and have faith in-spite of what is 'seen.' Blessings to you and hopefully all of our theological and doctrinal understandings will be shaped more and more by the Holy Spirit Himself.

Posted By: Michael G. Halpern | December 1, 2011 2:07 PM

Right on!!!

We're so quick to think God is in some way punishing us for not truly seeking Him (??) when something goes "poorly" or doesn't pan out as well as we'd hoped. But like you said, what's MOST important is that we're becoming more like Jesus (which usually takes doses of humbling and suffering to certain extents), not that we look or feel "successful."

Posted By: Chris | December 1, 2011 2:20 PM

Some of us hold to a theology that allows for free will.

Which means we can be absolutely obedient in following Christ, but unfruitful IF those to whom we are sent choose to reject Him.

Very unfair to claim all not seeing hundreds won are apostate.

Posted By: Anonymous | December 1, 2011 2:22 PM

It isn't hard to find Biblical examples of people who were faithful and obedient to God and met with constant "failure." Look at Jeremiah, called to proclaim God's warning to the people of Judah and their king - first, a message to surrender to the king of Babylon (which the king and people ignored, and then threw Jeremiah into an empty well) and then, after the bulk of the people were carried into exile, a message to the remnant NOT to flee to Egypt. When the people disobeyed this message, Jeremiah walked after them, pleading and weeping. Nobody listened to Jeremiah. Where did he go wrong? The Bible indicates that he was right on, the whole time.

Look at Paul with his "thorn," to which God replied, "My strength is made perfect in your weakness." Look at Samson, who did more to accomplish God's mission with his death than he had with his life. Look at Elijah after Mt. Carmel. Look at the pleading of God himself with the people of the earth in the book of Revelation!

The point is, throughout the Bible, success and failure is measured by faithfulness to God's call, not by the results that we see.

Posted By: Denes House | December 1, 2011 2:35 PM

I think the correct figure for pastors leaving the ministry is 1500 a month according to surveys done by Barna, Focus on the Family and Fuller Seminary. This makes the problem much worse!

Posted By: Bill | December 1, 2011 2:36 PM

Its nice that you can be comfortable with 1,500 pastors leaving the pastorate each year, and 7,000 churches closing, church attendance declining across the board in America. Its nice to have a theology of failure and to be comfortable with it. We should be fasting, praying, weeping, preaching, repenting, seeking God's face, not spending time justifying failure. I didn't say "all not seeing hundreds won are apostate", I said blaming apostasy on God is wrong. Nor is this a cold theological debate between Calvinism VS Arminianism. Let's pursue a theology of fruitfulness. Read the book of Acts prayerfully. "Ask of me and I shall give to thee the heathen for thine inheritance" Psalm 2:8..."He that wins souls is wise" Prov. 11:30.

Posted By: rickd | December 1, 2011 2:44 PM

Thank you so much for this article. I have been preaching for years this same thing, especially against those who believe one's faith is not strong enough if they are not healed. Or someone must not be stewarding their lives (especially financially) if they are growing richer in monetary concerns. These thoughts are not of God, nor are they theologically derived from His Word. We believe such things because we want control of understanding (i.e., cause and effect). Regarding the Lord's perfect will, we will often not understand His ways; a lot about our God doesn't make sense to us mere mortals (though Spirit-filled). We must trust and obey and have faith in-spite of what is 'seen.' Blessings to you and hopefully all of our theological and doctrinal understandings will be shaped more and more by the Holy Spirit Himself.

Posted By: Michael G. Halpern | December 1, 2011 3:04 PM

RickD

Thank God for the great success the Bakers experienced in their field of service and for the success of the soul-winners in Portland. Now send those same people to Morocco or Saudi Arabia or Iran and let us know the results. God moves in different ways in different places. Explain that to us. He is sovereign. Thank God He is.

Posted By: Jim R | December 1, 2011 3:06 PM

Jim R, my point was those 150 people were average christians from 23 different churches in Portland (in the most un-churched state in the union). Like me, a 61 year old business owner, introvert and no gift for evangelism. We were challenged to do this, we prayed, we were armed with God’s word which is “alive and active and sharper than any two-edged sword” and knew that God WANTS to save people. It says, His “word does not return unto him void”. God brought the increase of 530 new believers. Only after we have fasted, interceded, wept, preached, followed the leading of the Spirit, given it time and then seen scarce fruit we can we write the Book of Lamentations. But we must never feel comfortable in failure. Until that point we should be expecting the book of Acts, the NORMAL church growth manual for our time. “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.” - G. K. Chesterton

Posted By: rickd | December 1, 2011 3:37 PM

The problem is church definition. Ecclesia is merely any group of believers meeting in His name. The institutional corporate assembly with building/staff today may not be what Jesus meant. "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." The Chinese home church is a more healthy model not structured to entertain/perform. Billions could go to widows/orphans/hungry, etc.

Posted By: Lynn Berntson | December 1, 2011 3:41 PM

Thanks for all your amazing, insightful comments today, folks! Just a side note: I didn't title this post, and I'm not at all okay with church failure. It makes me very sad and grieved.

Posted By: Mary DeMuth (@MaryDeMuth) | December 1, 2011 4:00 PM

In some cases, this may be more of an American thing than a Christian thing per se. America, and Americans, seem to have a success thing going, which is not necessarily a bad thing in itself. Where churches and where God is concerned however, we should stand back a little; judging a situation the way the world does, might be a mistake.

Jesus, the very reason for our faith in the first place, could have been said to have died in a very negative way, and murdered by people who either didn't believe His message or didn't want it to get out. In the end, what to some people might look a complete and abysmal failure became a glorious success; but only God could foresee this and do this, not any human; humans might have told Jesus to high-tail it out of there! Even the best of us can't see what God can. So, for me, one person coming to Jesus after living a wasteful, profligate and sinful life is a glorious success. Filling mega-churches is one thing, bringing a lost soul to Jesus is really something else. Even when we talk about Jesus and His gospel on the Internet, we never know who will hear and be changed, just like the ripples on a pond.

Posted By: Tim Childs | December 1, 2011 4:38 PM

I would caution that we think twice before we knock "success" since there really is such a thing. The problem comes, I believe, when we measure success only in terms of more, bigger, better etc. Maybe, just maybe, God does not measure the way we do.

One of the speakers at a Missions Conference I attended years ago had been a missionary to Muslims, and could not count one converts in spite of 15 years of ministry where he had to spend time also learning the language and culture of a totally foreign people.

It would have been cruel of me to consider this hard-working servant a failure when he was called to work among a people for whom conversion, unlike in the West, is often a death sentence for the convert.

I sometimes ask Christians if they know who Mordecai Ham was. Invariably they say no. I inform them that Mordecai Ham was the preacher who led Billy Graham to faith in Christ. Was Bro. Ham a success since there might not have been a Billy Graham without him?

I also read about a Chinese believer called Lee and his ministry "Lost sheep Inc." This ministry follows up persons left behind after the big Crusades pack up and head back to North America. Mr. Lee has led many wandering sheep back into the fold operating out of his twenty four square feet office in Hong Kong.

Since there are thousands of individuals, churches and ministries like those mentioned above, there is in all likelihood more to success in working for Christ than most of us will ever know.

Posted By: Steve Skeete | December 1, 2011 5:35 PM

I absolutely agree that an evangelist’s success should not be measured by money, buildings or reputation. Evangelists, Missionaries and Apostles are responsible for bringing people to Christ whether they end up in jail or die broke. Chinese evangelists build small house churches, Reinhard Bonnke has led millions to Christ in African crusades. Two Swedish missionaries from the Assembly of God evangelized Brazil in 1911 resulting in 50 million Church members in that country today. We were designed to be fruitful, whether 30 fold, 60 fold or 300,000 fold like Mordecai Ham. Steve, there were more than 33,000 conversions during the first year of the ministry of Mordecai Ham. As a result of his ministry, more than 303,387 new converts joined Baptist churches in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky, and the Carolinas in a space of 30 years, including Billy Graham. Even Brother Lee is very sucessful at finding and restoring lost sheep. But to say you were called to be an evangelist and spent your life preaching the gospel without one convert and to hold that up as a model of success...I don’t know. I suppose that is hypothetically possible. Perhaps things happened that only God was aware of like preparing the seed bed for others. But that would certainly be a-typical. 1500 pastors bail out of ministry a month, 7500 churches close their door every year...am I supposed to justify that with the theology of failure? Even Jeremiah had converts and a small following (though it never included the King). And I am sooo glad that the author Mary DeMuth is not comfortable with this article’s title, even though so many posters seem to be. Mary may be too modest about her own fruit and, her assignment is not over yet! Thanks for being obediant and brave Mary.

Posted By: rickd | December 1, 2011 6:27 PM

What about the Catholic church? It has never closed.

Posted By: sara | December 1, 2011 7:12 PM

In American Christianity, we've definitely (generally) bought into a prosperity gospel, even if we don't outwardly say it. We need more conversations like this one, and need to return to Jesus's words about facing persecution.

And remember, we should consider it pure joy when we face trials of many kinds. (James 1)

God didn't promise outward success and material blessings, but He does promise spiritual blessings and eternal life. Um. Yeah. Can't beat that! :)

Posted By: rachel @ even one sparrow | December 1, 2011 7:46 PM

Read John chapter 6. Jesus had 5,000 people with him in the start of the chapter. By the end he had around 12. What happened? He preached truth. People do not like truth. Islam has big numbers, does that make them true? Sometimes preaching the Gospel repels people, actually many times preaching the Gospel repels people. It is the Holy Spirit that works in people to bring them to repentance, not us or any church. I see revival starting here in America, but it is not on the front page of any paper or Christian magazine. Yet. Keep praying. Let God produce the harvest.

Posted By: William Reed | December 1, 2011 9:00 PM

Fantastic post and full of truth. As I read Scripture, I see that many faithful people suffered tremendously.

Posted By: Marlena | December 1, 2011 10:24 PM

The Bible calls us to repentance, obedience and faithfulness. It tells us to seek God first. NOWHERE does it call us to be “successful“. --Obedience is our responsibility. The outcome is God's responsiblity.

Only eternity will reveal the impact the couple in the article had in their short ministry in France. We cannot always see the impact of our obedience, and the influence of our Christian walk on others. God is NOT on our time table. Only eternity will reveal the spiritual and eternal impact of our lives on others. How dare anyone sit in judgment of them or blame them for not being successful because they don't measure up to worldly standards.

IF success is defined by big buildings, big budgets, big productions, etc. like a business empire then, a lot of pastors and churches are failures. That definition makes churches in rural communities with sparse populations failures. HOWEVER, IF success is seeking the lost, obedience to the Word, faithfulness, becoming more and more like Christ, they may far exceed the big or mega churches w/their fancy buildings, large staffs, etc.

I happened to attend a nationally well known mega church in the past. I observed it’s turn toward growing even bigger numbers to the neglect of the needs of the faithful who were already there. I observed the way the staff, unless they were in the spotlight, all but ignored people or you were among the few regular attendees they knew and liked. I observed what appeared to be the self-serving performance of staff members, the flaunting of having “connections” within the church, etc. By worldly standards of numbers, size of building, etc. That church is a success. But is it in God’s eyes?

Posted By: DV | December 1, 2011 11:25 PM

"In American Christianity, we've definitely (generally) bought into a prosperity gospel, even if we don't outwardly say it." - rachel @ even one sparrow

Amen!!!

I worked for a short time as a missionary and ended up quitting before I had raised enough funds due to negative experiences with other Christians in the church and also in the organization. Then the director of the mission's organization made up some lies so that they could take all of the money I raised and use it for his own ministry AFTER they had promised I could use it to go on short term mission's trips. Several Christian friends were quick to point out that God didn't want me to serve him as a missionary! I ended up leaving the church and teaching English at another church (that I wasn't attending) for about two years after that. So, I guess God didn't care if I served him as long as it didn't involve asking Christians for their precious money.

I agree with Rachel that the average Christian believes that God will make sure that he/she gets a spouse, children, job, house, car, etc. IF he wants him/her to have it. It's unbelievable to me that Christians actually believe that God prevents things from happening against his will I've argued in circles with people and ultimately decided that the church was a healthy place for me to be since God has neglected to bless me with most of these things. It's unfortunate, because I believe that prosperity gospel drives a lot of people who don't magically get everything they want out of the church - including me.

Posted By: Anonymous | December 2, 2011 12:15 AM

What a wonderful post. The comments are very interesting as well. Who has the mind of God? We don't and there is something very wonderful about that. We don't even know what failure is.. because we cannot see what He sees in us.

His purposes are not the same as ours. We take the journey with Him because of our love for Him and not because we want what we want.. that never works. The Christian life is filled with letting go..of our own ideas and thoughts and longing for what He has for us.

We are never promised total understanding..there is mystery. I'm sure God does not see success the way we do, our ideas are influenced by the culture and the times we live in. He is always looking deeper.

And as you said, His kingdom is upside down. He values each person more than institutions or ministries. His heart is for each of us and His love for us is unfathomable. Our part is be faithful (even when nothing makes sense) and to watch Him unfold His perfect plan for our lives.

Thank you Mary for saying something that needs to be said.
Blessings,
Alicia

Posted By: Alicia | December 2, 2011 2:49 PM

I am wondering if rickd knows anything about Muslims. I wonder if he is aware of the plight of Iraqi Christians, most of whom have had to flee their homeland for fear of being killed. I suppose they failed because they didn't convert their Muslim neighbors and make the new Iraq a safe place for themselves.

At least three of the current Republican presidential candidates say they are running because God told them to. At least two of them will not win election. Does this mean they are failures because they can't all be president? (Or may God have other plans for them, of which the campaign is a preparation?)

On Judgement Day, God is not going to ask us about programs and numbers. He is going to ask by whose righteousness we dare to stand before Him. What joy to say "the righteousness of Jesus".

Posted By: lsteel | December 2, 2011 7:57 PM

I agree with you completely Isteel. Philip had to flee Jerusalem for Samaria because of persecution as did Aquila and Priscilla, who fled to Rome. All God asks of us is obediance, from this fruit arises. There is a revival going on in Iran, but Jesus also urged people to flee Jerusalem (like iraq) when persecution threatened. I would suggest asking God for fruit. Praying for results. Fasting for results...as all the great evangelists and revivalists of history did. "Ask of me and I will give to thee the heathen for thine inheritance". I'm praying for revival in my city.

Posted By: rickd | December 2, 2011 8:31 PM

God does not call us to be successful - He calls us to be faithful and obedient.

Too many churches have built their "success" on business and marketing principles rather than the principles of the Kingdom.

"Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labour in vain." Ps.127:1

Sometimes faithfulness and obedience takes us through drought and desert; into places where the gospel meets fierce - even lethal - opposition; and adversity that will strip us of every hope and dream and measure of success BY OUR EXPECTATIONS, in order that we will finally and fully seek and rely upon God, His vision, and His way of doing things. Even then, it may seem like we are sowing precious seed on bare rock or in burning sand. But when God sends the rain we suddenly see shoots of new life where we had entertained no hope of expecting it. And while many of the new shoots will wither and die, those that survive have the potential to shatter stone or transform desert into pasture.

Too many churches are fixated on increasing numbers (budget, attendance) at the expense of relationships - and, in particular, the primary relationship between God and the body of believers and the corollary relationships within the body.

To paraphrase I Cor. 13...

If a church speaks with clever sayings or quotes on its marquis or with the most well designed web-site complete with pod casts and streaming video but has not love, it is just another source of visual and aural pollution.

If a church has great exposition and interpretation of the word, engaging classes on systematic theology, and a prayer and intercession ministry that can move mountains, but has not love, it is nothing.

If a church gives sacrificially to its ministries to the poor and oppressed, and even sells off property and assets to fund these ministries, but has not love, it gains nothing.

Posted By: Frederick Harrison | December 5, 2011 3:08 AM

Regarding seeming failure in ministry, read C.S. Lewis "The Last Battle" (last book in the Chronicles of Narnia).

Also look up the story behind the hymn "It Is Well With My Soul."

Failure by the world's standards - but faithfulness by God's standards.

See Romans 8, which includes this verse:
RO 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Posted By: Frederick Harrison | December 5, 2011 3:25 AM

Seems to me God's opinion on church success/failure is well laid out in Revelations.

Posted By: mona | December 5, 2011 11:50 PM

I find it distressing that this topic has generated so many comments that are antagonistic to other believers. Why do we do this to each other?

I think the basic point of the original post is important. I would say that living in love and obedience IS success, but it might not look like success to those around us.

There are areas where a missionary might not see salvations, yet he is preparing the harvest for salvations in the future. Think of the 5 missionaries in Ecuador (Jim Elliot et al) who were martyred. Were they failures because they died before everyone got saved? The fruit of their ministry came many years later.

Posted By: Ann | December 7, 2011 11:12 AM

Thank you for the insight. I have been blessed by your challenges to cause us to look at ministry success differently. I pastor a very small church and have seen the ebb and flows of growth. Many times it has been discouraging. Even so God has given glimpses of His presence prompting us to continue. I am especially encouraged by the words, "Wherever we serve, we can rest in the fact that God, El Roi, is the God who sees the unseen, who perceives the greater worth beneath the ashes, and whose blessings often look like paradox".

Blessings!
Pam

Posted By: Pam Addison | December 9, 2011 9:32 AM