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« Should You Let Your Baby 'Cry It Out'? A Christian Response | Main | Making the Most out of Mommy Blogging: The Woman Behind Money Saving Mom »

January 25, 2012

Real Women Don't Text Back: How Women Fuel the Man-Boy Problem

Women will help single men grow up by refusing to play by their frat-boy standards.

Ruthie Dean, guest blogger

“Wanna grab a burrito 2nite?”

The melody of the Atlanta symphony’s instruments flowed through the auditorium. I didn’t have high expectations for dating at 23, but a text containing the word burrito wasn’t exactly what I had in mind (and with 1 hour notice). I liked him, but couldn’t escape the mental picture of showing up in a swanky outfit to an establishment where my entrance would be announced in a jubilee of “Welcome to Moe’s!”

The resounding question I hear from many single women today is: “Where have all the good men gone?”

Recently, several articles and statistics have shown that women are making history with career achievements, while men in increasing numbers are seemingly living in a prolonged state of adolescence, sitting back with their buddies and playing video games. Cultural observers note that men are not finding compelling reasons to grow up and marry. The former cultural standards of marriage for sex and children have changed drastically in the past 50 years as one-night stands are celebrated and single parenthood accepted.

And women are only fueling this behavior by excusing it.

The charged response to my husband’s blog post “Real Men Don’t Text”revealed women’s frustration with text messages, video games, and guys who still act like frat boys. Women posted the link on Facebook and wrote things like “Can I get an a-men?” “Men! Read This!” Others wrote in with stories about men who had asked them out through text, broke up with them through text, and asked them to have sex through text. Men were challenged to “grow a pair, pick up your Bible, turn off the video game, and pursue a woman.” But an interesting perspective arose from the clamor of “Amens!” Several men said that while “real men don’t text,” real women don’t text back. They knew, from experience, that a woman wasn’t worth pursuing if she engaged in a text relationship.

As women, I believe we in part perpetuate the man-boy problem by failing to hold the highest standards for ourselves, standards God desires for us. I recently heard a friend complaining that she couldn’t get Phillip* to call her. Two minutes later, she responded to his text, “Wanna watch a movie at my house?” in the affirmative. I’ve seen it too many times—brilliant, accomplished, God-fearing women making excuses for the players and the deadbeats and the guy who aren’t interested in anything more than sex. A lot of us have been there. We’re strong. We aren’t settling. And then we lose sight of what’s important and start “hanging out with” that guy. If a man can’t call to ask you on a date, he’s certainly not going to man-up and put a ring on your finger.

The arguably most dangerous way women are contributing to the man-boy problem is in regards to sex. Oftentimes, women, including Christians, go further physically than they want to, hoping that their prowess will help them ‘catch a man’ when in fact, the opposite happens. Sex gives men the benefits without the promise of commitment and fidelity. Sure, there won’t be as many guys lining up to date you, but marriage will be a different story. Keeping the highest sexual purity standards will ensure he isn’t dating you just because he likes seeing you naked—and keep his intentions honorable.

Another way women perpetuate the problem comes with the well-at-least-he’s-better-than _____ game. My hairdresser told me yesterday she had a hard time ending a relationship with a non-Christian, because the last Christian she dated had sent her pornographic text messages. Infuriating! However, standards should not be created based on the worst examples but instead on what God deems right.

Many women also fall prey to the lie that dating or hanging out with “that guy” does not hold future implications. I found this especially true in college when friends (and myself, ahem) would date Mr. Text or Mr. I Don’t Believe in Organized Religion believing we could end the relationships as soon as someone better came along. However many of my friends are still entangled with or damaged by these men—especially in cases where sex was involved. By dating or playing around with the wrong men, we are essentially displaying mistrust in God’s plan and harming ourselves when the right man comes along. Andy Stanley, pastor of North Point Community Church, challenges singles: “Become the right person the right person is looking for.” A woman who dates placeholder men is most likely not who “Mr. Right” is looking for.

I also must briefly mention the Savior card. “I can change him,” “I can save him,” or “I can help him” used to be my favorite excuse for why I dated the men I dated. However, it took me several failed relationships and many heartbreaks to see how we as humans cannot change people. God is in the business of changing and redeeming men’s hearts. We aren’t. Smothering a man with your prayers and church outings and leading conversations usually needs to stop for God to work. Lowering your standards will never change a man—and almost all of these “I can change him” situations result in him changing you.

The current dating scene is hard—but it is not hopeless. I know many women who waited patiently and are now walking arm in arm with honorable, godly men. In the meantime, keep pursuing your own interests and building God’s kingdom, whether or not a husband is on the horizon. If a man texts you, ask them nicely to call you next time and take you out for dinner.

I told many men I would not go horizontal with them until after the wedding bells. Most couldn’t run away fast enough. But one day, in strength and vulnerability, I explained my standards and asked a man to call me. And he hasn’t stopped since.

Ruthie Dean blogs at RuthieDean.com.

Comments

Ruthie, this line is really well-put: "The current dating scene is hard—but it is not hopeless." Not only is that a fair assessment of the current dating scene, but I think it applies to the dating scene ever since dating came into being.

I'm curious about the back-story to the burrito text, too. On its own, I don't see it as asking someone out on a date. It reads like someone asking someone else if they want a bite to eat. I can come up with all sorts of other factors that would turn this into a date-like romantic overture, but on its own I just don't see it. And I would be tempted to think that might just be a difference in how men and women handle communication, except that my personal experience is that it was just as likely for a woman I was interested in (decades ago, before I met my wife) to tell me after dinner that she only meant it all as two people getting a bite to eat together.

Thanks for a good article, Ruthie.

Cheers,
Tim

I'm floored by the thought that some women even get texts from men. A lot of my friends and I could throw ourselves on the floor in front of Christian single men and they would just step right over us and keep walking.

And before you ask, yes, our hygiene is fine, we don't look like the Bride of Frankenstein, and we can carry on an intelligent conversation.

Hi Tim,

Thank you for your comments. The burrio back-story is this was the second time I'd ever heard from him & it was supposed to be a date. It was just a humorous example of how communication is changing the way we date & how men don't have to put forth very much effort.

My husband and I used to instant message each other before we started dating. It was prehistoric texting I suppose. When we started dating our friends complained that we were never on IM anymore. We were too busy hanging out!

First of all - Moe's! I love Moe's. It closed down in my town. So suddenly I want to drive 45 minutes to the next down so I can have Moe's. :P @ Ruthie Dean for bringing up my poor, beloved Moe's. (I'm teasing of course, but that's only because a week ago or so I seriously considering driving that 45 minutes - across state lines so I could go to Moe's :) )

I've heard this argument before--the secular version can be found in that hideous book, The Rules. Ultimately it comes down to this idea that women can get men to be different by dangling ourselves as the prize. I don't buy it.

We're in the midst of a cultural shift. Women are stepping into new roles of business and leadership, and men are questioning their identities in the face of this changing gender dynamic. The idea that "not texting back" is going to hold back that tide is pretty ridiculous. Somehow, we have to adjust as a society to a world where men and women interact on equal terms and figure out what that means for our romantic relationships. Trying to return to the chivalric ideal is not only misguided, it's impossible.

What does this mean for single women? I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing you can do to force a guy to become mature or to ensure that a mature guy will come into your life and be into you. The math says that *some* women will never meet someone like that who is compatible (although a lot still do). So single women have a couple of choices: 1) "settle" and hope he grows up eventually, or 2) make relationship choices that are emotionally healthy for yourself, refusing the temptation to try to control men, and continue pursuing all the other valid and worthwhile goals in your life.

It's a nice fairytale to believe that if we can just do and say the right things, Prince Charming will come along (or the frog will turn into him). But that's not maturity, it's manipulation.

Great article. I pray women who are single will read this and take it to heart. My oldest daughter is 14 and has been asked to go to the prom. In our tiny community the entire high school goes -- 9th through 12th (we are NOT letting our daughter really date at such a tender age). The guy who asked her asked her as a friend, but she told him she didn't think we (me and my husband) would let go. I asked my husband and he said, "If he asks me in person I'll let her go."

My daughter was so mad about this condition. She kept saying why it was too much for the boy to handle. BUT, I told her it was good for him. It was a respectful thing to do, helps him grow up. We parents need to do these kinds of things. Expect our children to act honorably, and if a young man wants to date our daughter, we insist we must know him and he must look us in the eye.

My daughter still isn't keen on this situation but she has peace about it.

Even if your daughter in her 20s or 30s, you still can have influence in this area. Help her choose rightly. Help her see she is worth the wait.

AND, if you are single, find contentment in God. He wants to be your all in all. And He can be. Find out who you are in Him. And you will be a much better spouse and parent for doing that. I found my husband when I quit looking and God had to take me all the way to Africa to find him.

I would love to save this article and have my young daughters read it when the time is right (they are 2 now...they have awhile to go before they are ready for boys and relationships). I worry about how the dating scene will be when they are young adults, and I hope we (my husband and I) and God can impress upon them not to lower their standards and to keep both their faith and self-esteem through the "hard" dating years. Great article and sound advice for young women!!!

I've heard a lot of people talk about how they felt they could change the person they were dating and usually those people would pull them downward and lead them far from Christ, and it was very truly sad. Great article here that you're written!

I love getting texts from my husband. It's like a secret communication that we can indulge in, when we have just a few moments, during our workdays apart. Our text exchanges are witty and sweet, and how I would have loved to have them when we were dating! The phone is a nice tool, but it's necessarily public, and it leaves no record. When I'm missing my husband, who is not and never has been a "man-boy," I can read our texts and smile as I look forward to the end of the day, when we're together again.

Texts can be romantic. And adults who turn their noses up at any useful form of communication seem to me to be putting some purist or nostalgic vision in the way of getting to know each other and staying in touch. I thank God for the creative minds that have given us many ways to communicate!

There's nothing new in this article (or the comments asking us single women to take heed) that I haven't heard a million times over. Yes, we should value ourselves. Yes, we shouldn't let men do whatever they want with us. Yes, be content with God. Yadda yadda yadda. The same advice over the decades gets tiresome. None of this really has anything to do with texting though.

I am most certainly not arguing that all texting is negative. However, text messaging is a great example of how communication & dating norms are changing. My husband and I love text messaging, but when we were dating we spent more time on the phone (we were long distance) than texting. It all depends on if you think the man should pursue the woman and how that should look.

Thank you for all the positive comments. Keep the opinions coming, even if you disagree!

"It all depends on if you think the man should pursue the woman and how that should look." (Ruthie's comment at 1:43.)

Actually, if we're going to be biblical, shouldn't we let our parents pick our spouses? ;-)

Tim

P.S. Since my daughter's 19, I think I'll run that idea by her.

P.P.S. And thanks for the backstory on the burrito text. That made the whole thing clearer in context, RD.

Excellent article. We women should not be enablers.

I'd pair it with something else, though: Nobody's going to have the fortitude to "not settle" unless they also believe that having no relationship at all is better than being in a bad relationship. Settling is worse than remaining single. Period.

When any relationship is better than no relationship, we're always going to slide into bad relationships. It's like picking players for teams. "Bobby" is a horrible player and treats his teammates badly, but why should he change? He'll get picked even if he's picked last. If you prefer to be one short rather than have him on your team, the only way he gets to play is if he shapes up.

Andrea-agree 100%. I think that is a trap many women fall into. But being single is a lot better than being married to the wrong person. Marriage is hard enough married to the right man! ha:) Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

Leslie-I will admit Moe's is one of my all-time favorite places:) My husband laughed that I told that story because if he texted me & said "wanna go to Moe's" I would be excited. Love that you thought about driving 45 mins!

Devon-agree with the manipulation never being a good way to "catch" a man. However, I've heard many success stories of women asking men kindly to "step it up" & the man responded well. I think "The Rules" is a great book honestly for showing women how they should date/act around a man. It's not manipulation, it's wisdom!

Gina-I'm so sorry that has been your experience with Christian men. As a women, it is painful to feel overlooked. When I first became a Christian in college, the Christian men were scared to talk to me (or so I perceived). It made me feel terrible. Stay strong sister & glad you don't resemble Frankenstein:)

Hey - from a Christian single woman who waited for the right guy... until I was 40! ... it's worth the wait. No regrets! Keep your standards, you won't be sorry...

Gwenivere! Love it! Thanks for sharing.

Hey,

Just thought I'd my 2cents. It's a good article, and seems to be saying that the guys the problem only.

I'm a single guy, in my early 30s. go to Church regularly and been a committed Christian for over 15 years.

I'm asked out various Christian women over the last few years. One broke up with me because she didnt see the need for a boyfriend - it was out of the blue, with no warning.

Another took over 1 week to tell me no after I invited her out. And that's all I got an email saying "no". and this from a devout Christian woman,

And a few others told me after going out a few times that they only wanted to be friends.

So far, I've been dumped by text, email and of course in person.

As far as I am concerned, it would be great to find a godly Christian woman to court and marry. But no one seems interested.

texting is an inexpensive form of communication for a long distance relationship like the one I have been for a little over a year. Although we also prefer to talk on the phone when we can so we can hear the inflection of each others voices. It would be great if we had skype. It has it's place. However, any form of communication that ends up with a man seeking what he can get out of a woman without being a man of honor is out of line.

Ruthie,

Way to go. Thanks for writing this, sister. Guess what? It gets worse when you get older. Texting is the least of the issues that arise when people my age try to find someone of significance. My prayer is that you'll be able to find the right man when you're in your 30s. But if God calls you to singleness, it can be a wonderful existence, too. God knows best!

For me, as Cynthia said, texting can be be a romantic tool, but only if it's used correctly. Perhaps, women object more to the content of the text rather than the technology.

Blessings to all of you!

Suzanne

I'm a 27 hr old single woman dating a guy who has turned out to be less of a man that he originally portrayed himself to be. I find myself daily making acceptions to moral standards I never thought would even crack. This article has changed my current direction & perception. Thank you for the kick in the pants that I needed to shape up & ship out.

I'm still single at 35, and can't tell you how many times I've heard people tell me my standards are too high. My mom has always told me there are worse things then being single. Thank you Ruthie for this great article! I am wondering though, how old were you when you got married?

These standards are unrealistic and unimportant. I fully believe that men should 'man up' and that women shouldn't settle, but waiting around with strict arbitrary standards such as whether a guy takes you to Chipotle or somewhere swanky, and whether he texts you or calls you is missing the point. How about some more Biblical standards, such as whether the man is willing to put Christ first, and lay down his life for you? Food choices and communication platforms are emphatically NOT important factors in choosing a spouse!

I don't think there's anything wrong with a guy asking a
girl out via text message. What's most important is what happens on the date. Is he engaging? Is he truly interested in building an honest relationship? Does he want to get to know you?

I use FB/texting all the time to coordinate schedules with friends, family, and my husband. It doesn't determine the quality of our face to face interaction. It's simply a tool that makes it easier for us to communicate. I think the Church in general needs to recognize that a variety of forms of communication are viable in relationship building. Today's generation doesn't see these interactions as compartmentalized and "different" or "less than". They've never known life without it. The problem arises when you use technology out of laziness or a lack of ability to truly rise to the occasion that community demands. I've maintained, built, and nurtured many relationships via text, FB, Twitter, email, phone calls, and face to face interaction. Honestly, there are many people I would not be as deeply connected with if it wasn't for the instantaneous nature of texting. Like everything in life, it is what you make of it.

I think this is a fabulous article. Obviously, texting is not a bad thing at all. I like texting...it's easier and quicker...it's great. Having said that, I've recently had an experience with a guy this past summer. He would only text me..similar to this story..about 20 minutes prior to wanting to hang out or grab a bite to eat...and only on his terms and his time. I played very much into his texting game..and still have trouble not texting back (far and few between now). He would never call at all, but tell me he was so interested in me when he would see me and only wanted to date me (my gut seemed to scream he was lying to me the whole time). He wanted more than I wished to give---and I held strong to that, which in turn made me more interesting and a tougher "game" to win in the end. He didn't win, I just ended up feeling very hurt and stupid for falling for this player (which a few years ago I would've never given this guy the time of day) as he really only wanted one thing and was not at all interested really in who I was---he claimed he felt he was going out with a 19 year old (which I'm 30) simply bc I would not give in to what he wanted. This article is such a good reminder to keep your standards high and respect yourself. I agree...you may miss out on a lot of guys/dates...but in the end... you will miss out on a lot of hurt. Unfortunately, these players if they don't grow up, will be very sad and lonely. God is the only one who can satisfy!

I love text messaging (I'm a girl). I hate talking on the phone. Even before texting became common/standard (yes I'm that old), I much preferred getting to know a guy prior to the "dating" stage by talking to him via emails/instant messenger.

Obviously when I get to know a guy well enough, talking on the phone doesn't become burdensome, but at the beginning during that "I think he might like me stage" I love back and forth text messaging. It's fun and low stress. But then maybe I just haven't had any bad super experiences with guys not maning up and just using texting as a cop out for calling or whatever.

Anyway, I know what you're saying is a little bit of the opposite spectrum, but just wanted to contribuite my thoughts :)

I text, but I do so in complete sentences. I see how this is a problem for some guys who need to grow up. It is a two-way street. If you are with a non-Christian or a non-committed follower of Jesus, I'm not interested. Don't play hard to get because I don't like being manipulated. Be sincere and honest and so will I.

There are some of us great guys out there, but it is hard for us too.

Let the Church say "AAAAAAAMENNNN!!!

I am an older guy and personally I think this is more of a God problem than a gender problem. Casual sex, pornography, the fabled “Man Cave”, obsessive following of sports (which is another name for obsessive TV watching), obsessive video games playing, watching gross out movies or cage fighting, working at minimum wage jobs, living on junk food are all symptoms of the Peter Pan syndrome and a lack of the fear of God. The sad thing is that many youth pastors cater to these stereotypes. College age church programs often enable and celebrate bad behavior, thinking it is a gender issue when actually it is a sin issue. Do not settle for these feral children who appear to be raised by wolves. Do not let your pastors cater to their vile habits. And then make sure Jesus is top priority in your own life. Pray, pray and keep on praying.

It appears that the general consensus of the responses here is that it's a great idea to wait for a mature, respectful man, but throwing an entire for of communication under the bus is needlessly pedantic. I agree completely. It sounds a hair away from a woman insisting I open the car door every time. "Forced chivalry" sounds like an oxymoron to me.

If I may say, I agree that all this is a bit too simplistic. While you do touch upon certain area, you are leaving a lot out. Not returning texts is a lot like the recent commercial in which the girls calls a guy to tell him she is going to be giving him "the silent treatment".

I am in my 60's and I talk to young men everyday and have come to realize a simple fact for these Tween-men: what do I need a woman for? Of what advantage is there? If we marry, it will end in divorce and I lose half my stuff! And why does today's woman need a man?? Women today can have a career, conceive children, have children, rear children and live a "full" life all without a man. Today's man can use the money he makes for his pleasures, go on trips, have fun with his buddies, and have all the sex he wants without marriage. And to be fair, if we had looked down the tunnel of time 50 years ago, we would have seen this is natural progression and result of the lifestyles we pursued.

The simple fact is that counter to God's intention, we no longer need one another. Men no longer need women as helpmate and comforter, certainly as a most treasured possession, and women no longer need men as provider and defender. This is a consequence of our life and societal choices for the last 50 years at least.

It is time for both sexes to learn God will save and forgive us, but he never promises to save of from the consequences of our actions. The remedy for this goes much further and is more complex than just not returning a text.

Regards

I have to agree that the issue is the treatment, not the method. I am a guy and been married for 15 years, so my experience is not with text dating. But in the experience of my friends, the problem is the games. Not responding is rude. Asking a person out on a date 15 minutes before you want to leave is rude. The point should be that if you are treated poorly before you are married, it won't get better.

Wow, Shawn, you hit the nail on the head!

Why is it that every one of these "man up!" articles ceaselessly beats up on video games? You could practically make a drinking game out of it. What is it about "video games" that makes them more intrinsically contemptible than, say, sitting around watching TV or movies? At least games usually require some combination of effort, dexterity, and skill, unlike vegetating in front of The View. I wonder how many Christian girls look at a decent guy and dismiss him as a loser just because he plays games for an hour a day or something like that? This article is only fueling that sort of unjustified discrimination by lumping them all together.

At least this article gets something right, which is that - finally - someone is sort of almost acknowledging that women have responsibility and can make decisions like grown-ups instead of blaming men for everything while all women are innocent snowflakes manipulated by evil Man. This article blames men for 95% and women for 5%. It's a start, I guess?

As the article touched on in the beginning, modern American society has destroyed men's incentive to get married and grow up, so to speak. What's the motivation? It seems easier for women to get white-collar paper-pushing jobs, while men who aren't well-adapted to these for one reason or another have fewer and fewer alternatives in this day and age. Combined with the abysmal economy, inevitable college debt, the much-maligned modern man is a victim of circumstances largely beyond his control. And the girls most men will have sex with are not the ones they want to marry. This is why the 'hookup culture' is largely the fault of women who basically feed men's worst impulses; women are really the gatekeepers of sexuality and if the majority of women were actually chaste, that would be some good incentive for men to marry them.

The most important factor, though, is divorce: when 50% of marriages end in divorce and a woman can end the marriage when she doesn't "feel in love" anymore to get indefinite alimony payments and near-guaranteed custody of his children, what man in his right mind would jump into such a rotten deal without extreme caution? For many men, the advantages of "growing up" outweigh the benefits, hence the prolonged adolescence. If society shifted to value men again, then they grow up.

Full disclaimer: I am fully independent, have a full-time, well-paying job, and live on the other side of the planet from my parents, so I am not trying to rationalize my own behavior.

Young people communicate by texting. That's just how it is. I don't think it is nearly as serious a problem as the author makes it out to be.

I think much of the problem in young people not settling down is economic. Almost any kind of job requires some post high school training after which there is a great likelihood that a struggle to find work will follow. If a job does follow, chances are that it will not involve benefits. So who can afford to think about marriage and possibly children? By age 25 or so, most people know at least one couple that has already divorced. 3 or 4 people come to mind that I know who are in their late 40s, got dumped by a spouse after 20+ years, lost much of what they had worked for all those years and all say that they have sworn off marriage forever.
It's a lot more complex than texting.

Ruthie

Thank you so much you encouraged me. I'm a single mom who recently ended a relationship with a guy I dated for 2 years. I fell deeply in love with him and ending the relationship was one of the hardest things I have ever done because I truly wanted to spend the rest of my life with him. And initially he said he wanted the same thing but I caught on rather quickly that he was just "saying" what I wanted to hear. I prayed for his salvation, took him to church with me, tried to engage him in bible studies I was doing all hoping that he would see the light and surrender his life to God. He never did and I on the other hand ended up loosing myself in a relationship that was never going to go anywhere. BUT, it was my fault, as my counselor told me he had no reason to marry me. I gave him all I had, my heart, my body ...everything. It has been a VERY hard lesson learned and I suffered many consequences emotionally and physically. I am still working through the pain but I am determined to get through this with God's help. I love what you said about not comparing. That's exactly what I did but in the end God spoke very clearly to me regarding His standards and how he expected me as a believer to live. So I did what I NEVER thought I could do and ended it. In the end I couldn't take the sin I was living in. It has been very hard and i still miss him terribly but God asked me to surrender that relationship and get my eyes focused on Him instead of making man my idol. Looking back the signs were there from the beginning. The first time we met he didn't text me he gave me his business card , after several days I e-mailed him and the rest is history. We set the tone of our relationships from day one and that is a very hard lesson I have learned. Glad I found your blog :)

Thank you, Ruthie, for this engaging and thoughtful article.

Hi Angie--I was 25 when I got married. I am very fortunate that God brought a man into my life so young! We were both overseas missionaries (him: Germany me: China) & it's amazing how we were both told we would "miss out" on finding a spouse if we served overseas--but God had prepared us for each other.

I think where women fall into a trap is basing 'standards' on chemistry/looks. Your standards should come from character (mainly). Chemistry will fade, but companionship is the most important part of marriage. Does anyone married agree?

I'm single, and I also think about this stuff for work. And *I'm* feeling unbelievably pressured by this post..

There are young men in our chuches and our lives who are struggling to figure out what it means to be a man. And there are many, many young men who are just struggling to find a job. Maybe there's room for ministry and mentoring, certainly there's room for friendships between young men and older men in churches? That would be a Christian place to start, maybe.

But it's quicker to blame (currently single) women, and to unload a fresh load of justification-by-meticulously-managed-dating on us. The cumulative effect is a bewildering overload. I'm asked to evaluate and compare others and police myself....by a website....

ON THE BASIS OF THIS: "Real women don't text back."

PLUS a sizable helping gets added of the (cultural, not Biblical) idea that I am incomplete without a husband. AND a vat of shame gets dumped on women who see "highest sexual purity standards" and feel dirty all over again...and that's not OK.

A holy life can't begin with rules and measurements. Holiness doesn't hand out rules to people, then tell them to go follow some rules. It begins with love for God (all) our neighbors: X-Box-players, slackers, texters-back, players, deadbeats, and the "brilliant, accomplished, God-fearing women" (who might secretly be more afraid of failure than God.)

The Christian life is supposed to take away fear, not add to it.

Hmm. Interesting article. Interesting posts. The basic problems I see are sexual morality and lack of maturity in our culture. I am older but I work with a lot of young ladies and what you are talking about is true for todays young people. Women who have sex outside of marriage have far more problems than those that don't. Do not be fooled by the movies ladies! God designed sex for married people, not single ones. You are better off alone for a while than being in a bad relationship. REAL men do not want to have anything to do with a woman that hangs on to a guy just to have a guy. That shows weekness. As far as maturity goes, it is a real problem and is only getting worse. Women can help by first following the above guidlines (No sex outside of marriage) and by insisting on a man being a man. He asks you out, not texts you out! He takes the lead in spiritual matters. He talks about life not sports or video games. He acts like a man. I know what so many of you are thinking right now...."men like that don't exist today" You are right, but if enough women waited for a man like that, more men would get the message and start to grow up. I could write so much more, but it is late.

Kara, I'm with you. In fact, I think I'm done with this blog. I'm single, 37, a parent. I'm also independent, well employed, a home owner, and I lead a fulfilling life. But I'm probably supposed to be miserable because I'm not married, right? Forget it. If that's what being a Christian woman means around here, I'm done with it.

Natalie--I am incredibly encouraged by your comment. (I almost started crying reading it). Sister, I have been there and I am so proud of you for walking away! That takes extraordinary courage. I challenge you not to beat yourself up or succumb to guilt, because Satan is the accuser and Jesus is the one who says "there is no condemnation". Stand strong! Please stay in touch!

Hi Kyle, thank you for your honesty. I did not mean to come across as a man-hater or someone who places all the blame on men. Both men and women are to blame. And video games is just my prime example--they are not in themselves harming relationships. It's like anything--moderation is key. (Just like desserts, right?)

Meg--so glad my article was the "kick in the pants" you needed. Blessed by you! It's hard to write on such a controversial topic & I'm thankful God is using it for His glory. Let me know what ends up happening with "Mr. Wrong".

Rob-thanks for commenting. I'm so sorry for your experience! I can guarantee there is a God-fearing woman out there for you! Sometimes God protects us through rejection until His best comes along.

My husband was 29 before we got married and he thought the same thing!

I'm a Christian woman who waited - often without hope! - to date (and recently, marry) an honorable Christian man and I can attest to the value of patience. That said, I think it must be mentioned that even while young men in our culture do not want to grow up, neither do young women. And I should specify: young Christian women are the WORST. I know so many of my peers (I am 26) who refuse to "settle" for men who do not meet the criteria on their "lists" - which means that their future husband must look like Prince Eric, have the emotional competence of a child psychologist, play the guitar (preferably as the lead of a worship band), and have financial success out in the world at large. Many Christian women treat men, and the humongous diamond ring that they hope to get from one, as a big fat Christian status symbol. Lets not overlook the fact that both sexes have their own propensity to sin that requires repentance.

Amen Charity!! BTW, I married at age 42 and kind of tired of seeing some, not all, but some of the Christian sisters have absolutely impossible standards. I am thankful that my wife see's me as who I am, not some impossible dream ("I love him for the man he ALMOST is" syndrome).

Huh, the whole asking a woman out by texting thing sounds foreign to me.

Alot can be said about attaining some level of maturity before pursuing a wife. I am glad I had several people around me to kind of kick me into gear (again and again) when I expressed my desire to find a wife, but still needed some maturity. It was tough, but the results were great.

One of the hardest things someone can do in the whole dating battle is to look in the mirror and fix what they see (literally and figuratively) before blaming the opposite sex for all the problems.

Charity, Thank you.

And here I see a big unspoken problem: not women with too high expectations, but rather women with wholly unrealistic expectations - much like their male counterparts. If a man should (rightly) be taken to task for thinking Judd Apatow and Beer ads give them a reasonable expectation for women, women should be called out for thinking that their man is going to be Tim Tebow, Edward Cullen, and McDreamy thrown into one. Same with expecting to have a Christ-like attitude on men after watching endless hours of emptyTV like The View and RomComs.

And the lofty expectation of marrying the introspective guitar-playing worship guy? Congrats, Charity. You win the comment section.

No, he shouldn't be texting you in barbaric text-talk 15 minutes before wanting to meet. But if he sends you a text asking how you are doing, calm down and don't give up because he violated the imaginary list in your head.

Hi Charity & David,

Agree that some women hold unrealistic expectations based on appearance & other non-issues in dating. I encourage women to set standards & have a list of deal breakers that doesn't include anything to do with talents (ie he plays the guitar) or appearance (he has McDreamy hair). By and large, the single Christian women I know aren't turning down dates with men based on petty lists.

And of course it's ok to send text messages--my point is it shouldn't be the only form of communication because that's called laziness.

Calling for women to have high standards is a good thing, but women texting back is not the reason some men refuse to "grow up."

That responsibility belongs to the man and to the church as a whole. Women of all ages, relationship status, etc. are part of the church and to single out women as part of the cycle shifts the focus away from the man's personal responsibility. It gives an excuse, "Well if it didn't work I wouldn't be this way," that isn't true or helpful to anyone.

"Actually, if we're going to be biblical, shouldn't we let our parents pick our spouses?"

It doesn't say that specifically in the Bible. But arranged marriage(not forced but arranged) as a concept is to hastily rejected. The "love" system has the dark side that it is to some degree social darwinism. The romance stories hide that by focusing on those who find their special someone, and ignoring those who don't.

Arranged marriage has it's problems too. But it shouldn't be rejected automatically. And there is no reason both methods can't exist side by side.

I told my now-husband "I'm not going to have sex with you" on our second date. He was pretty shocked, not least because he hadn't really imagined that I would. That's when I knew he could be a keeper.

Both men and women should have high standards for themselves in regards to marriage. It's so hard. I know. I rarely was asked out on dates, I think because men were intimidated by me. It was pretty well known that I wasn't "easy" in any sense of the word. (I did do some asking myself, though.) I do think that women in general have more power in the dating equation (the power to accept or reject) than they think they do.

Strangely enough, my relationship with the man I did end up marrying started because our mothers set us up on a blind date. I don't advocate arranged marriages (though I have an east Indian friend for whom it worked quite well), but sometimes wise family and friends do know a bit about whom one might click with.

Kyle gave us the crux of the situation. With women always getting at least half of the assets and almost always getting custody why should a man buy into such a rotten deal? I know of women who become very prosperous by going through multiple divorces. It could even be called a racket. Add to it the number of ex-wives using the kids to get back at the ex and you can't blame men avoiding marriage thus staying in perpetual immaturity. Truth is divorce courts in all states favor women and many men today have seen this in their own families or the family of a close friend in high school. Perhaps men today are cynical and don't want to be responsible because if they do "grow up" and get married then they will be quickly dumped when the wife "falls out of love" or some other specious reason to end the relationship. Ask any woman and it is always, and I mean always, the fault of the man that a divorce happens. When are women going to start accepting responsibility for their own irresponsible and immature actions rather than always blaming the man? Truth is, in courtship, the really reliable and courteous guys are probably not "excitng" enough to consider for a long term relationship or marriage because the guy is too "predictable" thus is not "exciting" or "challenging" to the woman. I believe immature women like the challenge of changing a man or who are "turned on" by irresponsible men are as much to blame as the men. Time to grow up ladies and realize the divorce court system is "rigged" in favor of women and men have finally become aware of it and thus choose to stay in a state of perpetual irresponsibility. Time to "cowboy up" ladies and realize you are as much to blame for our deplorable courtship and divorce mess as the man and maybe more so. The system is rigged in your favor and men are catching on to this injustice and are avoiding being responsible!

Hi Katie,

I'm not arguing causality here. Merely saying that women lowering their standards is one of the factors fueling the man-boy problem. We are responsible & so are the men. But if everyone is busy pointing fingers, no one will ever change.

Equating video games with immaturity is intellectually lazy and extremely annoying.

Speaking as a woman who loves video games, when played in moderation there is absolutely nothing wrong with many of them. They are no more subject to abuse than many of the other hobbies BOTH men and women pursue. (Why is obsession with sports sanctioned by society, including Christian circles, but not video games?)

Anonymous 2 wrote "the divorce court system is 'rigged' in favor of women." Baloney. Such assertions, based on anecdotes and news reports, are not only untrue but also dangerous. I know the laws of my state concerning dissolution and child custody extremely well, and how they are aplied in the courts here. Nothing is rigged in favor of anyone and no number of cynical diatribes can change that fact.

The real import of all this though is that the article concerns what people seeking to follow God might consider in their relationships with one another. Ruthie does a good job with that. Digressions into what people do under worldly value systems with no regard for God's leading, on the other hand, don't seem to be that helpful.

Cheers,
Tim

I found this article really useful. I think I'll stop sleeping with men who purport to be Christian and then say they love me and want to spend the future with me. I just feel that I'm competing with all those Christian women out there who are so much prettier and cleverer than I am. At church on Sunday, women seem to wear really glamorous outfits, and I just can't fit into high heeled shoes or get the right looking makeup.

I really struggle with where all the good men might have gone. Perhaps I should opt to be single, but it's definitely not the biblical pattern, is it? In the Old Testament, hardly anybody is single so I definitely think I need a husband. Maybe you could say where you think it's possible to find a good man. I've tried churches, Christian dating websites and networking events, but I'm just so sick of Christian men who are worried about what I earn. I'm very competent in my professional field, but the men I've dated seem really nervous of that. I have a boyfriend at the moment, but if things don't work out, do you think I should lie on first dates, and say that I don't have a senior role, just while I'm getting to know men?

Recently, I've started attending a new church that has been teaching on the real differences between men and women, and has been trying to get the men to grow up, and the women to live in a way that puts the man's career ahead. We were taught to think of motherhood as our only calling, which makes me feel really worried. A lot of the men in our church are told to stop playing so many video games and the women are taught to return to traditional home-making skills, like crochet and preserving. All the women in the church seem really happy and sorted, and I just think I might have over-achieved too much in my career... Do you think I might have done? Is my success putting men off?

I have started to date a guy who isn't worried about what I look like or how much I earn, but he earns only minimum wage at a burger bar. I really like him especially because when I asked him about sex, he said he'd take it at my pace, and he courteously telephones and always asks after me several times a week, and lets me walk through doors ahead of him. I'm hopeful things might work out in the long run, but I am just worried that he doesn't earn enough. Do you think a man that earns minimum wage is a deadbeat? My boyfriend says that he is really happy, and enjoys serving his customers, and doesn't need to put on a suit to feel like a man. I have never met a man like this before. However, he's not a Christian and my church are trying to persuade me that it's really only Christian men who I should date. He has come to church with me a few times, and seems really interested, but he says that he feels like the men at church are playing power games. What if he's right?

Ruthie, I feel it's so difficult to know what to do. So many Christian men have let me down that I am beginning to wonder whether it isn't the church that that is keeping these men as boys?

One of my best friends is single, and she says she's really happy and that God has called her to be single and to dedicate her life to being a good friend. But that surely can't be right, can it? I think she must secretly be quite miserable and so I always try to cheer her up when I see her by saying that I could fix her up with a friend... I just can't help feeling that a single life as a Christian is just about the worst thing imaginable because everybody else is in a couple. Recently, a couple at my new church got a divorce, and they had to leave because so much of the church life is social, and they just stuck out. Also, there is a really nice woman at the church who is single, but I've heard people say that she's secretly gay, as she won't date anyone. I can't imagine how she copes with all the whispering, but I try to be nice to her and she told me how difficult it is to be a single Christian with everyone expected to pair off. Is it like that at all churches?

I'd like to see an article titled "Woman Up!", for the simple reason that all I see are these self-serving man-up frustrations being burped out. It's a simple fact that men and women of each generation get the partners they deserve. Of course, in this article we have the usual "video games are bad" drivel, but where is the "working on shopping, reading People and US weekly, not learning how to keep a home, etc." is bad for women?

And as mentioned earlier, what's in it for men? We are just responding to the market place, where there is rampant premarital sex, frivolous divorce, ridiculing of men, usurping men's roles as heads of households, etc. It seems that having multiple options is wonderful if you're a woman, but not allowed as a man. But I think many men are learning, after the 30-40 years of feminist shock treatment, that they have other options.

In normal situations, if something isn't working, we would examine the causes and proffer remedies. We do this all the time for the economy. Why isn't there something for women when they are not getting mates? Why not examine why men don't want to get involved? I submit that this process of self-reflection might be too painful. A good exercise for any woman would be to ask why a man would want to marry her. Hint: it's not about your fabulous career and your sexual experience, etc.

And don't ask why you think men should partner with you, but why from their perspective they would want to. I think the answer is obvious, but would be rejected because women would think that it would set them back too many years.

And finally, why do men text, and behave in certain ways? Because it works! The article does get this point right. But notice the end of the article:

'I also must briefly mention the Savior card. “I can change him,” “I can save him,” or “I can help him” used to be my favorite excuse for why I dated the men I dated.'

Examine it closely: the man needs to be changed, he isn't saved, and he needs help. I don't doubt that he does. But I interpret this to mean that the author dated men who were not Christians, were bad boy/jerks, had been around, etc. To her good credit, she is choosing differently now. I'm glad the guy is calling her.

Most of the men I've known described as above have married. Whether they got "caught" at an earlier age than they intended or whether they saw all their friends getting married and decided to marry whomever they were dating at the time, they got married. I'm the one who is still single (female). I know several now married couples who slept together on the first date. It's the Christian women who go on for years single and dateless and in my experience, it's not the QUALITY of Christian men out there but the QUANTITY.

This is an excellent article..very practical and relevent
I am 60 years old and single. I have always been acustomed
to the personal approach. Either face to face or the phone.
I am relieved to hear that the computer does not work for alot of women. I can vouch for the christian ideal,even at my age,of building a relationship based on trust,respect and friendship and remaining celibate until marriage. I have had some think I am silly to take this point of veiw
considering my age. The sexual part is more satisfying with
an expectation for the best wine saved for last

Regards.Jack

This is Anonymous 1:41. I also think we could learn a lot from Jewish practices of matchmaking. They really are quite adept at this. I think they were the first to do speed dating. At any rate, they don't just leave dating up to the individual alone, they recognize this is a community issue and that it benefits the community to have it's single members married so more people than just the single people and their few sympathetic friends get involved in finding suitable matches.

To all the single ladies...

Keep your eyes as a DOVE for your true love....Christ Jesus.
He is the one who gives you the desires of your heart, and if you have the desire to be married it is because He gave you that desire. Seek Him and He will unfold all that He has for you each & every day....He alone is the one to direct your steps.

It is not about texting or not texting, it is not about pursuing YOUR interests or building His Kingdom....for His Kingdom is within and He alone is the builder & maker of all things...it is all His work! Be at rest precious sisters.
He is the same yesterday, today and forever and what He did for Abraham's servant He will do for you...the SERVANT was LED directly to the pre-ordained wife for Isaac!
No dating....already picked out, planned, and purposed.

Be holy... separate yourself for Him alone...and He will reward you with more than you can imagine!

The blessings of Christ to all those who read this!

@Annonymous 2 11:12 AM - You are absolutely correct. A short time ago I had the opportunity to listen to a women (in her late 20's) who was going through a divorce because she woke up one morning and was no longer in love with her husband. She complained that it was very easy to get a divorce, but the house which was in both of their names was under water on the mortgage and they couldn't sell it. So they were stuck living in the house. I couldn't stop laughing!!!

S. Schulz - Thank you! Excellent words of encouragement. These are some of the verses I've been going over to remind myself to focus on Christ and seek his wisdom while I'm waiting for a husband.

Charlotte - if your church is just as you describe it, then it doesn't sound like a healthy church. Unfortunately, some aren't. Instead of trying to make yourself fit into their mold, pray for God's wisdom and become the you he created you to be (sounds like a greeting card!). As for your friend, well... whatever works for her. Only she can determine that. As for the guy you're seeing, that's difficult. I don't mean to give a pat answer, but all you can do is pray for wisdom. Good luck!

Before I start my rant I have to say that I agree with the article. I was always raised to court a girl and ask them in person.

Now the problem I have with this article. Or I should say how a lot of women think.

If video games make deadbeats then cars drive drunk. It gets a little annoying when I bust my tail to get my self a nice paying job as an IT Professional only to have some minimum wage working woman write me off as a bad guy because I enjoy playing video games in my free time.

People rather blame something else rather than take responsibility. Woman don't want to admit to the fact that they chase after the "bad boy" stereotype so they have to blame something else (this case videos games) for the reason their jerk of a boyfriend is being a jerk.

Ladies, all of the good guys are right here in the friend zone where you left them.

Well it seemed this hit quite a few very close to home.
A relationship is a lot like a gem in that the more faucets it has, the brighter it shines. Texting isn’t the main mode but just one faucet of communication when it works, but if it’s the “main” mode, maybe there’s not much there.
The comments on the attitudes surrounding divorce in this thread was used word for word by my nephew and his significant other before they changed their minds. At first when they considered getting married, they both PLANNED for it to last 5 years, max. Seems marriage has become way too much like a secular business venture rather than a life bond.
Video games aren’t the problem but generally treating people as if they are a character in one may be part of a growing, unsettling trend. The causal comments of boys not growing up now quite frankly scares me a bit, but it helps me understand what is happening around me now. As to Christian women wondering where all the good men are, we are here and we don’t act like frats, we’re quiet, respectful, work hard and try as we might to be otherwise, could be a wee bit shorter than 6FT.
To the Christian women reading this, rest assured you ARE the most beautiful thing on the planet and have been or will be noticed; just don’t write off those very “friends” in your church that don’t play in the band.
(Note for those ladies in Richmond VA – you have one open)

Charlotte, no it isn't like that in all churches, though it is like that in too many. As for single people in the Bible, that would include Jesus and Paul. I Corinthians 7 explains that singleness is an honorable calling. God is more concerned with purity, which is still His standard. As a fellow single, I know this is hard, but it is far more important to God than what the prospective spouse earns at his job.

Just know that if you are a believer, you have acceptance in Christ that is not based on the approval of those you go to church with.

Some of you ladies admit to lifestyles of fornication and dating nonChristian men. You know this is wrong but continue to make excuses or look for sympathy. Why would the decent and devout men around you feel any motivation to live up to your demands? What do you offer them for all their effort?

I was also thinking about the fact that some are sleeping with their boyfriends and don't date Christians, then what kind of husband do they expect to find? I was a virgin when I married in my early 30's. I dated through the years, and dated nice Christian men, who all acted like believers should act. When God sent my husband into my life, we knew almost immediately that we were right for each other, and now we've been married almost 30 years. We know that God meant for us to be married to each other for as long as we're alive on earth. Fornication, like homosexuality, is a sin that is condemned many times in the Bible. God punishes His children when they disobey, and with the Holy Spirit in us, we should automatically try to please God. Really, people don't die if they are celibate. God is supposed to be first in our lives. I can't really picture God blessing someone with a wonderful Christian husband if they are rebelling against God.

Great article, Ruthie! I haven't yet made it through all the comments--love that you're getting such a great response!--but I'd like to throw in my two cents about The Rules.

This book isn't for everyone, and I don't necessarily agree with it 100%. But I do agree with the overall theory that a woman must respect herself and know what she wants if she is to find the right man. The premise of The Rules is not about manipulation, or, as one commenter stated, the "idea that women can get men to be different by dangling ourselves as the prize." It's not about getting a man to be different. In fact, one of the rules states: Don't expect a man to change or try to change him.

The Rules are about women having standards while dating and trying to find the right man. It's about women having self respect and knowing that we are worth more than a one-night stand. It's about knowing that we deserve to be treated well by a man. It's for women who are willing to make the means count toward an end that they desire. Too many marriages fail these days, and I for one don't want to fall in that statistic. I want a man who will respect me and go out of his way to treat me well. I'm willing to wait it out for the right man who will show me that I am worth a phone call. And I know he will be worth the wait.

Jodi respect is earned not given to you on a plate. Plus consider the man's desire what does he wants instead of what you want from him. Otherwise all you get is good men running in the other direction and going their own way. When you are more ladylike and respectful for men then good men may start showing up. For once try dressing in a traditional manner and see what kind of man you attract

There's a lot of "I'm worth the wait" and "He's worth the wait" language going on, so I thought I'd drop a line about that. We should not be abstinent as a means of exercising self-esteem. The purpose of abstinence is to obey God's commandment (which was issued for our own physical and spiritual well-being and not, as some secularists argue, a means for a controlling God to further manipulate us). If your goal is to be pure for Mr. Right or Mr. Perfect and your reasons for purity are "because I'm worth it," I see failure on your horizon. As the author mentioned, we need to busy ourselves with God's kingdom, which means pursue the Word, pursue the kingdom, and pursue godly relationships of all kinds. If you are there, you are more likely to find a godly, mature man who values the same things that you do.

1) One wonderful thing that feminism has given women and men is the ability to see past this rhetoric of "you are not complete until you are married."

Thankfully, it is no longer true that women cannot exist without the protection (which more often exhibited itself as control) of a man. Woman can find fulfillment in life through various things, many of them mentioned above, and by ignoring the rhetoric, they can be happy that way. So can men - video games included!

We need to celebrate singleness as equal to marriage. It is hardly biblical to put one above the other. Not all people are meant to marry and/or have children. We hardly need to worry that the human race will stop coupling off and procreating. It is a very natural tendency. At the same time, our civilization could greatly benefit from fewer people having children.

2) Another one of the great effects of feminism is that with women and men able to find fulfillment as individuals, we make better couples when it happens. We don't come together because we "need" something from each other, which is a recipe for disaster as those needs change throughout a lifetime and because of the hierarchical issues that ensue. We come together because we are drawn to another's personality, charisma, approach to life, intelligence, what ever works to you.

Yes we are having trouble as a society adjusting to this ideology. That is to be expected. There are still competing messages out there, as this article and the comments show. I encourage both women and men to recognize the rhetoric for what it is (and it comes from all sides) and focus on finding happiness and fulfillment with the stage of life you are in. Looking to another person for fulfillment is emotionally immature behaviour. It is what we do as children. Moreover, we all know that we can't make "love" happen. Treat all people who come into your life with respect - do to them as you would have them to do you.

And as for sex, it is both more and less than what our society makes it out to be. But it certainly isn't everything.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Charlotte's comment was satirical. And a good piece of satire at that!

Charlotte, you said that the church you are in wants all women to put their husband's career first, to focus on domestic arts, and to consider motherhood their only calling. You also said that everyone is expected to pair up and that a single woman who doesn't date actually gets backbiting whispers about her claiming that she is lesbian, only for that reason.

I feel bad that here I am, a stranger, giving you advice, but quite honestly, I am worried about your being in this church. It is wonderful that you are a Christian; Jesus is the best thing that ever happened to the world and to all of us who've become involved with him! But I want to tell you that not all Christian movements are the same, *at all*. In every religion, denomination, etc, there are extremists. There are some extreme movements in Christianity today that look at the problems we're talking about here--men acting like boys etc--and try to fix them by forcing everyone to be the same and putting a lot of rules on people, rules that are *not* in the Bible. Some of them teach that you should have as many kids as possible, even 10 or 12. Some of them teach that women should do anything their husband tells them to (and I mean anything) and that adult women, even in their thirties, aren't allowed to get married without their fathers' permission. *None of this is in the Bible.* Some of them will point to certain things in the Bible and say that's where they got it from, but the thing is, you find that if you had sat down and read whatever passage they're pointing to on your own without someone telling you what it meant, that's not what you would have gotten from it at all.

From your description of your church, I'm worried that it might be in, or kind of at the edge of, one of those extreme movements. (It doesn't sound completely extreme but I am hearing some things in common with those people and that is what worries me.) It's good for you to be in church but I wonder if it's really good for you to be in *that* church. I wonder if there are any other churches near you that you could go to, that might have a more healthy balance, that might encourage everyone to grow up & be mature, without trying to fit people into boxes. If you find a healthy church, it will probably also be a church where you aren't made to feel awful for being single. I pray that you find a church like this.

I also want to say, I'm sorry the dating scene is so hard for you. It sounds like you've had experience with a lot of men that didn't treat you well. I'm glad this new guy treats you better but I want to tell you that there are men out there (they do exist!) who will treat you amazingly well. Actually from your description he could be one of them but I'm not sure, so I wanted to say it: there are men out there who will never push you for sex at all until you get married, and who will just spend hours talking with you and who, when you get married, will do half the housework without your even asking. I just want you to know that. I pray you find someone like this, like I did.

I'm reading a lot of hurt people. Unfortunately, that pain seems to have turned into hatred and bitterness toward the opposite sex. The generalizations are pretty horrible. If anyone thinks all men are worthless boys and all women are manipulative gold diggers, then I find that both terribly sad and completely unbiblical. I pray that God would soften and heal hearts.

Interesting that none of the many positive comments on this article appear to be written by young, single women -- the apparent target audience.

Jan Brown, I would like to see a blog geared towards men as well. CT does have a men's page, but doesn't seem to be more than a very short scripture study and a quote or two. My fear, though, is that a men's blog may turn out to be nothing more than a "here is where you are getting it wrong" column..you know, the typical Father's Day message heard in many churches.

Robyn, I concur. It is sad to see so many hurt people turn their pain into anger towards the opposite sex. Yes, MANY of us have been hurt by the opposite sex. It may help SOME people to look in the mirror (figuratively and literally) and fix THEMSELVES before trying to fix the opposite sex (I had to do that myself).

Robyn - you're right. I made the earlier comment about the small quantity, not quality of single, Christian men out there so I only see this angry viewpoint online. I have nothing to compare it to in real life and can't really gauge what is going on since I don't know any of the commenters. That said, I think everyone should remember that even good Christians are not necessarily a fit for every other good Christian of the opposite sex. I used to bemoan that men weren't asking me out until I realized that anyone who wouldn't ask me out probably isn't right for me anyway.

I still think this article misses a key truth in that there are plenty of men and women, Christian or otherwise, who don't do the right thing but still seem to get married and often happily. Marriage is not a reward for good behavior.

11% of all American adults are divorced
25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce

27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce
24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced

I keep resenting this idea that women are the gatekeepers of sexuality. God gave the command for sexual purity for BOTH SEXES. Not one is the one to hold out and the other gets a pass. In a relationship both man and woman ought to be guarding each other's purity, not the man on the offensive to break down the wall's of a woman's resistance. The sinful and wrong thinking has absolved men of the responsibility to be self-controlled.What is really happening is now that women have decided to have sex like men, more sin abounds. If women must close up their cherry box, you men have an EQUAL biblically mandated responsibility to ZIP UP YOUR PANTS AND KEEP IT ZIPPED,whether or not women are pure!

I find this article baffling, especially from my own experience with dating. It's based on a few strange concepts.

First, a backstory: When I first started dating my ex, we'd met at a book club with a big group of friends. I had to leave early and didn't have a chance to get his number. I got it from a friend the next day, and sent him a text saying that I was glad he'd joined the club. We texted back and forth for most of that day, and he ended up asking me out (yes, over text!). And it wasn't weird teen speak text (indeed, I don't know ANYONE who uses those abbreviations seriously). Texting was just another way for us to flirt.

I dated him for three months, and the relationship ended when I moved away, not because he had any sort of maturity issues. To say, in a blanket statement, that texting is a sign of immaturity and that women texting back is part of the reason that men are immature is to 1. lay the blame at the feet of women for something which is ultimately the man's fault and decision, 2. Set an arbitrary standard of what is "mature," and 3. Presume that there is such a thing as a "real" woman and a "fake" woman (I thought I was pretty real, but apparently I'm not REALLY a woman because, god forbid, I prefer texting to awkward phone conversations!).

The idea that every little thing in a relationship is somehow a metaphor and microcosm for something larger is, frankly, ridiculous. A text is a text is a text. It is a method of communication. It is a low pressure method of communication at that. It doesn't put people on the spot, and it doesn't demand your attention RIGHT THIS SECOND like a phone call. If you would prefer that your boyfriend call you instead of texting all the time, TELL HIM. Don't whine that he's a man-child - if you don't say something, he's never going to know that what he's doing is perceived negatively!

And the idea that a no-texting standard would be the same thing as a no-premarital-sex standard is so ridiculous that I can't even begin to deconstruct it.

Anonymous @1:30pm. Well said about marriage not being a reward for good behavior. The pastor who married my wife and I said that marriage is the best accountability program (something like that). There have been MANY ways my wife and I have matured through being married that we wouldn't have been able to mature through as singles, or to the degree or speed.

I used to believe the false notion that one must attain a certain level of perfection before finding a spouse, and then I spent time whining why I was still single while most people my age married in the 20s (I married in my early 40s). Although I do believe people should work on certain character traits that may cause damage in a marriage before they marry, I think it puts way too much stress on someone whose life isn't perfect.

The type of men you want (who work hard and treat women with tender care) are produced by a patriarchy. The men you rant about here are the men produced by a matriarchy. Since you appear to approve of the matriarchy you'll have to be content with man-boys. You can't take away everything that motivates men and then shame them into being motivated.

Jocalyn - that comment is really off-base and could not be supported by any kind of research no matter how hard you try. But that's besides the point because there is something in between your two extremes called equality, which is the real Christian way.

I'm irked by the author's presumption that the man should do all the pursuing and the woman should wait. I don't think it's wrong to ask a guy out. I think this is a cultural thing (and an archaic one at that) rather than a biblical standard.

A real man will be a real man regardless of the sex that's available and the ease with which certain things are handed to him, regardless ofthe culture that he grows up in. I know because I married one, and he didn't marry me for the sex I wasn't giving him; he married me because he loved me and wanted to build a life with me. A real man will work for what he wants, will grow, will marry or stay single, raise children or remain childles, but in the end make something he can be proud of. In the same way, a real woman will be a real woman, will stand up for what she believes in, and for herself regardless of how she hs been treated or abused, she will rise above what is expected and will make something she can be proud of. I know because I am one.
The whole "If you get the milk for free, why buy the cow?" mentality bothers me to no end. It is the worst way to simplify the problem. Real men don't marry just for sex, and real men don't walk away just because they're getting it. And most women, at least not those around me, don't use sex for love. They use it for pleasure.

This is certainly a thought provoking article.

My main quibble is that it is a variation on the idea that "when women start acting like real women, men will start acting like real men." In other words, the responsibility for growing up, developing character, etc. is placed on someone other than the person doing the growing up and character development.

I've dated or been romantically involved with some pretty broken, messed up guys. And you know what? There was nothing I could do to fix them. And that wasn't my job. Perhaps the author is right to advocate non-engagement, e.g. not texting back.

In this case, loving your neighbor might mean loving yourself by having the confidence and self-respect to know who you are and what you want. For me, it means knowing that my worth is not based on whether or not a guy texts "what ru doing?" on a Saturday night. That behavior has a lot less to do with me, and a lot more to do with him.

I'd agree with Maylin's first "quibble" paragraph. It's always baffled me that the Christian sources I've encountered that advocate traditional gender power dynamics (i.e. male authority and female submissiveness) generally place the responsibility for men failing to lead on the women--that if the woman were to somehow "follow" or "submit" before the man led, that the man would lead. It always seemed to me that if a man should lead, he should also have the leadership skills and character strength to lead when it was made easy for him. The suggestion seems to undermine the whole gender system (i.e. that only men are fit to lead) such sources endorse, but I keep seeing it.

To lead when it WASN'T made easy for him. Sorry.

Victoria | January 27, 2012 8:33 PM

Your husband would have never married you if sex wasn't part of the deal. Don't kid yourself.

You did a good job of making the phrase "real man" mean nothing, though.

I am an older Christian woman who is married to a Christian man. His goal in our marriage has always been to serve me as “Christ serves the church” and to cherish me. Likewise, it is my goal to serve him in the same way and to respect him. We have 2 adult sons (32 and 25)who are seriously committed Christians, one married to and another engaged to wonderful, strong Christian women. As strange as it may seem in our “no pleasure deferred” culture of today, none of us has had sex out of marriage.
I would like to put forth that responsibility presents equal opportunities for both sexes today (as indeed it always has!). But these responsibilities are not learned by osmosis; we don’t simply absorb them somehow. Our sons were carefully taught the principles of Jesus from the Word of God and we did our best, albeit very imperfectly, to model that behavior for them.
There appears to me to be a glaring and very distressing lack of leadership both from the pulpit and in the home. There appears to be a real fear of stating Biblical principles and teaching them. We don’t teach our young men to be responsible Christian men who “step up to the plate” but we also neglect teaching our young women as well. For example, we don’t teach our young women to respect and not deride men. We appear to be so focused on making converts to Christ and afraid of offending potential “church goers” that we as a church are not making disciples of Christians after the initial decision to believe. We don’t go on and teach them what believing means in real life in action. How else can they learn? Therefore we live in a de facto, “each man does what is right in his own eyes” world like those who lived in the Biblical time of the Judges.
One last note, my sons, and their friends (some of whom are still single and still looking) all speak of episode after episode of being ignored by Christian women because they were not “dangerous” or “mysterious”. This is serious garbage in my estimation. If a woman looks for that type of man, unfortunately, she is more than likely to meet him. She hopes she will be the key to unlock the “mystery” and that somehow she alone will be protected by that attractive dangerous man. What often happens unfortunately is that she is treated badly because the mystery and danger were just inconsideration, insensitivity, and selfishness.
I am so glad to see a real discussion out there about these very important matters. It is just the tip of an extremely large iceberg though, I fear. I hope there will be much more fruitful discussion.

Good riddance, this article is rather ridiculous.

LMAO-- the "real Christian way" IS a patriarchy. Go look it up in the Bible, for starters. I would like to know where you pulled this magnificent "research" you refer to, since most "research" regarding gender studies is highly feminist-based and feminist-funded. In other words, Christo-feminism, the biggest oxymoron of them all.

As Laceagate says, equality isn't in the Bible, so who cares what your skewed "research" shows? I was under the impression this is a Christian site.

History supports patriarchy as well. There has never been a matriarchal culture that built a great civilization and there won't be now. Western civilization is falling to the conquerer "Equality."

It's sad to see so many women WANTING to be oppressed. I guess if being dragged around by the hair by your man (oops, I mean your absolute lord and master)is your cup of tea, go for it! Since slavery is in the Bible, I guess it's OK too?

Quote by Joycalyn: "As Laceagate says, equality isn't in the Bible, so who cares what your skewed "research" shows? I was under the impression this is a Christian site.
History supports patriarchy as well. There has never been a matriarchal culture that built a great civilization and there won't be now. Western civilization is falling to the conquerer "Equality"

Amy: Keep jousting at that strawman. It's a good use of your time as anything else you're doing.

Oppressed? You think patriarchy is about oppression? Do you even know what patriarchy is about?

Patriarchy is the leadership of family men. That is different from the feminist-infused, slave-driver image you probably have. Patriarchy is what St. Paul and St. Peter wrote about, and what is taught to women in Ephesians.

Feminism, on the other hand, teaches women that they can "have it all" while believing that they are better than men. Give that to Christian women who spin it into Christo-feminism, who believe that you can be Christian and feminist at the same time. Do you realize how damaging to men this really is? If anything, Christo-feminism is more oppressing because it force feeds the idea to women that they can place more on their plates and not have to worry about the consequences. Men and women were meant to be complementary, not equal or the same. The more we shame men into thinking that we are to be equal, the less quality men will exist.

The resounding question I hear from many single women today is: “Where have all the good men gone?” Some of us single men say the same about women too! This isn't a women thing, its sadly a human thing; just where do single people meet other single people; nightclubs? Churches? Colleges and universities? And what if you are a Christian and want to meet another Christian? More problems!

Having been a great nightclubber a long time ago now, I found that route very superficial and empty and no real way to meet members of the opposite sex. So what's the answer? I wish I knew! Attacking each other isn't it, and each sex blaming the other isn't it either; we're all wounded, we're all hurting and we all need love, plenty of true Christian love; the first place we seek this is through Jesus; He is the beginning and end of everything, even our love lives!

Love covers over many a fault, and if we are honest about our needs and receptive to other people's needs, we might find what we are looking for, with some prayer and leaning on God.

I think there is some truth to this sort of stuff, and there is real wisdom in the original article (i.e. don't move in together, don't settle, ect.)

I also think there is a real danger though in making inflexible rules, though. Like texting. If texting is quickly becoming a socially acceptable form of initiating relationships, how will guys know that you find texting unacceptable? How will you distinguish between decent guys who may not be the most adept at dating and "frat guys" who are only interested in shallow relationships? This goes beyond just texting, girls need to make sure that potential dates know what their standards are (i.e., they expect the guy to do the majority of "pursuing"). Guys can't read minds, and considering the diversity of opinion on this subject in the Christian world, many different Christian contexts may operate under very different rules.

I will come clean and admit that I once asked a girl out for coffee via facebook. I wanted to do it in person, but I could never feel like there was a good moment. I never heard back from her about that, although we are still friendly to each other. Maybe I have issues (who doesn't), but I'm not some "frat guy". I really liked this girl and respected her. Of course, she just may not have been interested, and that's fine, but it's sad to me to think that its possible that some rule made it so she couldn't say yes.

All I am saying is that you have to take the whole of a person into account when it comes to how to evaluate these things. The existence of some structure and "rules" can really help with the inevitable anxiety, but if you rely on the "rules" rather than seeing it as an opportunity to grow in faith, than the rules are not helpful. Also, especially if you aren't in a common context where everyone knows and understands the "rules", than opportunities for miscommunication abound, and I think some guys/gals will miss out on some great gals/guys.

Finally, I don't think you are successfully going to shame guys into men. Identity is not an all-or-nothing thing, and to some degree, trying on adult identities in romantic relationships is part of actually becoming a adult male. I think what may be a better gauge of manliness is openness to growth. When challenged to grow into more mature ways of relating, how does the guy respond? Does he step up, or sink back? Where is the guy headed, rather than where is he right at this moment. I think that is way more important than any particular instance of texting or whatever else is bugging a woman. I would also think women would prefer to be evaluated in this way as well.

Good thoughts, and its always good to hear about what some women are looking for in a relationship.

For all the single Christian ladies,

As a single Christian male, I agree with the other men that this article repeats many absurd myths about Christian men that, sadly, Christians often peddle.

First, if a man is a convicted Christian, then he usually has a vocation that he follows, is serious about it, and is endeavouring to obtain an education and a career. If a man is on his couch or addicted to sports TV or whatever, then he is probably not a convicted Christian. Stay away from losers – you cannot change a man. He must do it himself.

Second, if woman wants to attract a Christian man, then stop reading what other women (often embittered) think and actually get to know individual men, first as friends, then as perhaps something more, if it works out. Ask him interested questions about his work and what he does with his time – if he is any sort of man, he should be able to give ready answers. If he cannot clearly answer your questions, then he is the wrong guy and probably hiding something. While many men may have warped views of women, many Christian women have warped views of men, often resulting from women spending too much time with other women. Each man is as different as another, and wants to be considered as such, in the same way that every woman wants to be considered an individual.

Third, if you have a “List”, then do not tell him. Guys hate being told that they meet the 45 of 50 criteria, and further hate the female berating him because of the remaining 5. Remember that any Christian man could quickly concoct his own list, especially based on Proverbs and Song of Songs, and fail you on numerous criteria as well.

Hope that helps.

Robert

"Several men said that while “real men don’t text,” real women don’t text back. They knew, from experience, that a woman wasn’t worth pursuing if she engaged in a text relationship."

Texting a woman, then criticizing her for texting back strikes me as the height of hipocracy.

I am an older woman who does not text or IM and rarely e-mail. I think failing to respond to any communication that isn't blatantly rude is in itself rude. I think a better response to a last minute text invitation would be "no, I already have other plans" or "sorry, I am busy tonight". I have more of a problem with the timing than the form of the invitation. If you like the guy but don't like texts or last minute dates, "Why don't you call so that we can discuss a time when we are both free to have dinner" might give the guy a clue.

O great another behavior by men that women are responsible for

Hi Robert,

Thanks for commenting. Unfortunately, I see more Christian men floating through life without firm direction--than non-Christians. Of course, it doesn't apply to everyone (!!). As for lists...women need to make a list of non-negotiables mainly because it will help them have a firm grasp on what it is they are looking for. I think putting items about appearance, taste in music, and certain skills on the list is always a bad idea. However, job status, character, beliefs, & whether or not he wants to have children are very important qualities. In high school, I wrote "plays the guitar", "has blue eyes", and "has read Redeeming love" on my list which of course is ridiculous. But men and women need to have standards that they will not compromise.

Also, a great way to respond to a text is to say, "Why don't you call me and we can discuss?" My friend Jodi just employed this tactic and he called 10 minutes later and planned a date 3 days in advance.

Signing off. Loving all the comments!

Ruthie,

Thanks for your reply. We obviously know different Christian men. Perhaps some churches molly-coddles losers, I do not know. Blame poor, unBiblical teaching on what a man is and what a man’s responsibilities are. Perhaps it is because many men did not have good role models growing up?

Christian men have standards as well, so there is nothing wrong with pre-requisites per se. However it is ridiculous to encourage single women to have exhaustive lists which no man could possibly satisfy. You are encouraging single women to wait for an ideal that does not and cannot exist. It is reckless frankly.

As for texting, I really think that is the least of the single woman's problems. Also if the 'texters' cannot text in proper English, rather than "do u want 2", they are properly too stupid to get married and especially procreate.

All the best,

Robert

What is the big deal with texting? What is with the "if a guy texts you, he obviously has nothing good in store for you" attitude? I for one don't see the problem with texting. What about sending texts back and forth, especially when seeing the girl is out of the question, is so childish? I would appreciate intelligent, well thought out answers. I'm not trying to start a war, so if all you're going to do is yell at me in all caps, don't waste your time.

Thanks,
Mike

This is a highly illogical blog post. Texting and sexual promiscuity are unrelated, so I'm not sure why they are both featured as topics here. Additionally, the latter deserves our condemnation, the former is merely about personal preference. I text my best friends all the time, hence, when my husband I were dating, we texted a lot. Was that all there was to our relationship? No. But probably some of these women whining about texting are receiving texts merely because texting is convenient. If for some reason they strongly prefer calls, they should tell their boyfriends and stop complaining. Texting doesn't make someone immature or a loser. It just means they have a cell phone.

The issue though is that sometimes women want sex, too, just for sex. It's not the guy's fault all the time, and women aren't always pursuing sex just to get married.

Sexual purity is a must for Christian women and men, not to

The resounding question I hear from many single women today is: “Where have all the good men gone?”

The resounding question from legions of good Christian single men, is, "Why do the Christian women ignore/reject us and date jerks instead?"

Answer that, and you'll solve the problem.

I keep resenting this idea that women are the gatekeepers of sexuality. God gave the command for sexual purity for BOTH SEXES. Not one is the one to hold out and the other gets a pass

Quite true. Actually, WAY back in time, more responsibility was placed on the man. I heard this preached once and bitterly resented it, since i was more "sinned against than sinning" (more on that later).

But now that I've been married and no longer a naive virgin, I understand women a bit better, and can make sense retrospectively of a lot of things..... Simply put: women aren't psychologically equipped to be the gatekeepers, in my opinion. Once they've enjoyed sex (which is not the same thing as merely having HAD it), they have less self control than men!

Especiallly nowadays, godly men need to stand strong against the seductions of "Christian" women. Back in my single days, I was actually dumped more than once by "good Christian women" because I refused to fornicate -- and I'm a MAN!

Also if the 'texters' cannot text in proper English, rather than "do u want 2", they are properly too stupid to get married and especially procreate.

All the best
Robert

Robert -- Don't you mean, "PROBABLY too stupid to get married and especially procreate"....? And wouldn't your own misuse of the language in this context, disqualify YOU from procreating? For with whatsoever standard ye judge, ye shall be judged.

Jocalyn and Laceagate, if you examine the countries with the highest life expectancy and standard of living, they are also the most gender-egalitarian societies. The countries with the most poverty and disease are the same ones that hold back women from being full contributors to society.

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