Hermenuetics

Comments

Amen, amen, amen, amen!

Posted By: Kelly | January 11, 2012 9:52 AM

This is very timely for me, as we are dealing with infertility.

The church community is great at celebrating new life (a good thing), but it is NOT a safe place to live in that tension of 'not being pregnant yet.'

Case in point: A few people at my church joke about 'who's next' so much that once accidentally a rumor was started that I was pregnant. Then I had people jokingly telling me 'congratulations.' Of course no one apologized, because they had no idea it was potentially offensive.

Posted By: Kristin | January 11, 2012 10:11 AM

Thank you, Thank you!

My wife and I were asked many many times over the first 8 years of our marriage "So when are you having kids?". We had to explain multiple times - sometimes to the same people! - that my wife was unlikely to be able to have children; that we might adopt, but that quite frankly even if we did have the ability to have kids we didn't want to pass on our genes to the next generation and that adoption was just plain too expensive. For the first several years, we usually left off the most important part, which is that neither of us particularly wanted kids.

Oddly enough, most people stopped asking us about it when I came out, though my mother encouraged me to "make a donation" to a bank. Of course, now I *want* kids - I would love to be a stay at home mother with four or five kids (related or unrelated) running around shouting. But I've had to accept that barring a miracle it's just not going to happen, and now when I'm asked "have any kids?" it feels like a knife in my stomach.

Posted By: Newly Karen | January 11, 2012 10:15 AM

AMEN from me, too. I've dealt with several of these scenarios.

I had someone hand me a fertility doctor's business card after learning that I had married, for the first time, the weekend before at the ripe old age of 37. The assumption was that, as a 37 and 40 year old couple, we would both have difficulty conceiving and want to get to it right away. I told her that the laundry from my honeymooon wasn't done yet so we weren't thinking about babies quite yet.

After a miscarriage, the salt of other's nosy questions stung my wounds.

We have a healthy 7 month old son, who is a miracle due to my battle with heart disease. He will be our only child. But others can't leave well enough alone. When is J getting a brother or sister? Um...never.

Considering how babies are made, isn't this private information?

Posted By: Sarah K | January 11, 2012 10:16 AM

This is a topic I get pretty passionate about. While I think people are generally well meaning, it should be taught, with tact, that it is RUDE to ask about someone's reproductive choices in a conversational manner. It's not just "when are you going to have a baby?" it assumes you WANT a baby, are planning for one that moment, and as you said, dismisses the likelihood of possiblee fertility issues.

My sister-in-law struggled for years with infertility. The nosy women in her office would joke with her about it, having no idea what she was going through emotionally, or about the painful medical procedures she underwent to deal with endometriosis. Not exactly the conversation you want to have in an elevator with a coworker you barely know. Chances are, the person asking the invasive question doesn't want to hear the real answer. They just want the juicy baby gossip and will then move on.

While the person asking may not mean harm, it's just another form of gossip. Why do they need to know unless it's something I've brought up? I don't mind my mother asking me, she's my MOTHER. But random woman at a baby shower who I don't know? It's not her business. And then, worst of all, if you're married without kids and you answer you're not sure if you want children, you are then lectured. Or judged. Or convinced how children are God's gift, which I never argued against.

Again, this is rude and not socially acceptable behavior, Christian or not. If I want to have that conversation with someone about my fertility, I will start it myself.

Posted By: Stephanie | January 11, 2012 10:48 AM

I could not agree more. After I went public with my miscarriage, I jotted of this quick piece, Things Not to Say to Women of Child-Bearing Age: http://www.lauraziesel.com/2011/04/things-not-to-say-to-any-woman-of-child.html

These comments can be especially hurtful, especially to women (and their husbands) who are silently grieving a lost pregnancy or infertility.

However, I also think this is one reason going public with miscarriage and infertility can help the Church be a safe place for all couples, not just the fertile ones.

Posted By: Laura Ziesel | January 11, 2012 10:58 AM

What a powerful message, Courtney, and especially this line: "... conception is not a manmade invention." Precisely!

Long ago I was chatting with a very nice man at church who looked around the courtyard and commented on how wonderful it was to see so many expectant mothers there. We had miscarried a couple weeks before, and I was just glad my wife wasn't within earshot of his innocuously meant comment. I also learned a valuable lesson that day which I've carried with me now for over two decades: I don't talk pregnancy with any couple unless they bring up the subject first.

Regarding Kate and William having children, you wrote "we can be excited when the day finally does come." Actually, that day may never come. Which makes the whole baby issue, as you conclude, even more "not really our business anyway."

Thanks for giving us some wonderful insights about pregnancy, children and the sovereignty of God.

Cheers,
Tim

Posted By: Tim | January 11, 2012 11:11 AM

Yes, I agree. And while we're at it, let's quite asking women of marriageable age when they are going to get married. That question usually comes with baggage as well.

Posted By: Anne | January 11, 2012 11:32 AM

Although I definitely agree with the main point (obsessing about when other people will have kids is just wrong), the whole topic here makes me feel like a freak. I mean, it would never occur to me to wonder when/if Kate Middleton is going to have a child. I might wonder about my sister/friend/close relative (and hopefully be emotionally intelligent enough to keep my mouth shut) but why some public figure?

I was sitting in my church Bible study last year the day after the wedding took place. And EVERY SINGLE ONE of the other women WATCHED the wedding. Some even stayed up in the middle of the night to watch it live. And they thought it strange that I would have no interest while I sat there freaked out that so many people would care and that we Christians participate in the celebrity obsessed culture little different than everybody else. Just another thing to add to the feelings that I just don't ever want to fit in with conservative, gendered, American evangelical culture.

Posted By: PLTK | January 11, 2012 12:10 PM

I have been through something far worse. I met my husband, nine years my senior, when I was 29 and we married on my 32nd birthday. We tried for two years to get pregnant and nothing happened, then came the diagnosis: severe male factor to the point we cannot even proceed with normal ivf, but we have to do a special type called icsi ivf. During these 8 years, my highly manipulative backstabbing sister has hoited her three 'gorgeous' children over our heads at every conceivable possible moment, obviously deriving much pleasure with the sort of pain she can induce. I dealt with serious sexual harassment at my job where they were taunting me with babies - seriously my second ivf had just failed and this doctor had a wife who just delivered a healthy baby. He had all of the photos on his desk and asked me if I would like to look through them, he being my boss I could not refuse, however I did want to run and cry. I feel sorry for Kate Middleton as I feel she is probably suffering the devil's trick, taunting her spirit with everything and then not letting her have the complete picture. This is a horrible dimension where we live.

Posted By: Incognita | January 11, 2012 12:15 PM

PLTK, nothing wrong with rejoicing with those who rejoice and certainly no judgment necessary for those who choose to do so whether they know the individual or not. I was interested in the wedding but this doesn't mean I am celebrity obsessed. I did not watch the Kardashian wedding.

Regarding the article, thank you. Those of us who are childless KNOW we are childless including those of us still waiting for our husbands to show up and we don't need to be reminded that our clocks are ticking or any comments about our "free" lifestyles because we don't have children either. I am mindful that I shouldn't be giving parents parenting advice but it should go both ways.

Posted By: Anonymous | January 11, 2012 12:26 PM

Nice post. Great advice. People can be so insensitive to others and their situations. We have no clue what others are going through, what they have endured, what their dreams are, what their griefs are.

That being said, again, people can be very insensitive. And it is up to us, whoever we are and whatever our situation is, to realize they mean no disrespect. They had no clue they said something hurtful. They didn't mean not to be loving. They are just ignorant of whatever we are dealing with. We have to be in charge of our personal situation and be content with being misunderstood. If we don't want to tell someone something, we can just say something like "That's something I am not comfortable sharing."

People are clumsy emotionally. We have to help them become sensitive.

We do ourselves and them and the Body of Christ when we take offense, when we get hurt (whether they meant it to hurt or not).

We don't have time to be filled with hurt feelings by those who are insensitive. Maybe some would say this is insensitive writing but I share it knowing I've been in a place and still am in a place that is so very misunderstood by many, but God understands. God knows. And if people say hurtful things I realize they just have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. Laugh it off or just let it roll off and move on.

Posted By: Jane Hinrichs | January 11, 2012 12:39 PM

Can every person ever be required to read something like this?

I'm engaged (9 weeks 3 days till the big day!) and over Christmas I was asked every conceivable variation of "so when are you and partner having kids. I'm 22,we haven't even had sex yet, I'm still chipping away at my undergrad with plans to obtain a PhD.

It's obvious to any kind of objective observer we are not financially ready for kids. Heck, we don't know if we even want them. The frustrating part is this ends up leading to a "well, when you do decide to have kids how many will you have?"

His family has been asking me these questions since we started seeing each other two and half years ago. It's crazy. I've actually considered sitting down with my future MIL and explaining that while I understand she cares for us she needs to leave the kid thing alone.

Did I mention she's also made it clear she wants to be in the room when I'm in labor? She's going to be in for a rather disappointing surprise because there is no way.

Posted By: Cate | January 11, 2012 1:26 PM

"The reality is, in our churches, we tend to be far too comfortable with inquiring about the personal lives of people we don’t really know."

So true - worth repeating.

Posted By: Alan | January 11, 2012 1:28 PM

A wonderful piece, and something that as an avid royal-watcher, I may have unintentionally been guilty of. I also agree with Anne in that questions or statements about a person's single status need to stop as well. I understand that people mean well, but even comments like "I just want to see you with someone" can be hurtful.

The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will have children when and if they are meant to have children. The royal family will not fall apart if they don't, and neither will their marriage.

(N.B. not everyone who watched the British royal wedding - or any royal wedding, for that matter - is celebrity-obsessed. Some of us are in it for the history and seeing a different version of statecraft in action. The pomp and circumstance certainly don't hurt either. :D)

Posted By: Robyn | January 11, 2012 3:57 PM

”But let’s be careful that our excitement doesn’t turn into invasion of privacy, because in all honesty, it’s not really our business anyway." Agree.

We don't want children (cue the gasps). We've been married nearly 6 years and are very happy the way we are. We adore being aunty and uncle to 4 gorgeous kids, plus 'adopted' by the children of our friends.

'She's so cute! Don't you want one of your own?' 'You'd make such great parents!' 'Aren't you clucky? Don't you hear the clock ticking?' The list goes on. Sometimes I hesitate about holding and loving a new baby because of all the questions from others that will occur. And it's not just usually the one question, but an interrogation!

The issue of children is no one else's business but ours. Why do people in church make it theirs? We're rarely asked the question - or judged for being married 'so long' without kids - by others, but Christians seem to think this is an acceptable line of questioning. Why? We know we don't have to answer to them, or even to our families, so we no longer do (it may be dismissed with a wink and a joke, perhaps 'we're having too much fun trying', but we've learnt we don't actually have to say anything).

(You bet I watched the wedding! It was evening our time, so we had a royal wedding party (food and drink, fake tiaras with feathers - even the guys got into it - was quite delightfuly tacky!). I wanted to see what the dress looked like, what people were wearing - and talked about it the next day. It was historical and I wanted to see it. That doesn't make me shallow, celebrity-obsessed, conservative or gendered. What's the big deal? Why judge people who watched something and then discussed it?)

Posted By: KP | January 11, 2012 6:47 PM

A point I wish the blogger had also made is that we should not assume that everyone wants to have children at all. Not all couples are called to this!

Posted By: Shan | January 11, 2012 8:03 PM

I didn't even know there was a "Kate Middleton Baby Watch" until I read this. I would say this article is in fact participating in this watch, if only through a back door. It's kind of like saying, "No one think about blue elephants for the next 5 minutes."

Posted By: Peter | January 11, 2012 9:09 PM

Great thoughtleadership piece to start raising awareness of a challenging and often upspoken issue. My wife and I have attended a wonderful course held at our church (HTB, also know worldwide for the alpha course) that is called "waiting for children" - which has helped us discuss as a couple the issue of infertility and remaining fruitful for the Lord what ever great future He has in store for us!
Would be great to have a place to share materials and great learnings

Posted By: Alexander Watson | January 12, 2012 8:40 AM

Thanks so much for your article! I married my husband really young and had fantastic 6 years of marriage before we started "trying" to have kids. We prayed about having kids since our first year of marriage, but for one reason or another we felt that God gives us a "no" for an answer. It just didnt feel like it was the time for us. We would feel like we would disobey God if we entered "parents" ministry when in fact He had a different plan for us for those 6 years. Then one day we both felt like God is saying-- yes, Go-- now is the time. The only thing that ever made us question God was people who would constantly nag- "when are you having kids? biological clock is ticking. Wouldn't you just love one of these?" I hated those questions and they brought many tears. I was given a lecture that I can't understand love and compassion until I have kids and that I'm a worse, disobedient person because of that. The lecture was given by an associate pastor in our church. I'm pregnant now. Couldnt be any happier and know for aure it was God's timing.

Posted By: maria | January 12, 2012 1:22 PM

I agree that we shouldn't pry into peoples lives and can be insensitive to pain they may be going through, i have had 4 miscarriages myself. The church isn't real good about recognizing that loss, and often avoids it in the name of discretion as well. However, the Bible does says that children are a blessing and heritage from the Lord. We should be the first to acknowledge that and desire children if possible. Celebrate life and acknowledge loss. While there are certainly nasty folks(sinners in church imagine that) I've found most truly want to bless and rejoice and don't know what to do with infertility or loss. Let's work on that together.

Posted By: Sonia | January 12, 2012 4:53 PM

This is a topic I’m very passionate about as well. A few of the lines in the comments have summed up how I feel about being a 29 year old, married for 4 years, childless female. I hesitate some days to even go anywhere and talk to anyone I don’t know. Because it always comes up, at church related and any other event.

I wish I had these lines taped to my forehead so I wouldn’t have to try and respond in an appropriate, kindly way while I’m trying not to scream “Don’t I have a right to exist without having a kid?!”

Sarah K said: “Considering how babies are made, isn't this private information?”

I don’t talk about “how babies are made” with anyone but my husband. I get uncomfortable when friends have always opened up (a bit) about their lives in that way. I change the subject, laugh since I’m uncomfortable, I chime in with the joking about about how “prude” I am and we move on.

Anonymous said: “Those of us who are childless KNOW we are childless including those of us still waiting for our husbands to show up and we don't need to be reminded that our clocks are ticking or any comments about our "free" lifestyles because we don't have children either.”

I don’t like being told that “your clock is ticking” any more than that person would like to be told that “Your hair is falling out” or “Your face is getting wrinkles.” All of these things may be the case but it also may not be - all these things that are considered inevitable, may be for some and not for others.

Stephanie said: And then, worst of all, if you're married without kids and you answer you're not sure if you want children, you are then lectured. Or judged.

I try not to answer the question if at all possible. I try to deflect but sometimes 1) people are so unaware that they press and you cannot get rid of them and 2) I answer because why should I not be who I really am? I should be able to answer truthfully. (I will not lie just to get someone off my back even if I will never see them again. I spent most of my life agreeing to everything everyone said just to make everyone happy and that is not healthy.)

And for my truthful answer “No, I don’t have children. No, not anytime soon.” I am judged. The worst part are the people who are mad at you for not wanting children, as if you are selfish to have a life of your own or take some time to think carefully about what God wants from your life (which for mine may or may not include children). I have plenty of children in my life whom I love and would support in an instant and they are blessing. They can be blessings with or without being "mine."

I cannot grasp how people are concerned about celebrity or royal or whomever potential pregnancies (or weddings for that matter). I would like to imagine most people (royalty, celebrity or otherwise) would like at least some privacy around this matter.

I wish it wouldn’t become a headline or a news story to follow. Announce if you wish, yes. But make it a on-going story, No. I think that has the possibility of cheapening and diluting what is such a beautiful, precious and God-given time to the couple and those in their lives they wish to share it with.

Posted By: Jennifer | January 12, 2012 7:06 PM

Courtney,

Hoo-rah! Although it is true that children are a blessing from the Lord (suggesting we should want many of them), and that some couples who don't want children are rebelling against God's call, God does not necessarily call all couples to bear children, and he may call some to childlessness for the sake of his kingdom. At the same time, in our self-centered culture, even Christian couples need to ask themselves if their lack of desire for children is due to excessive satisfaction with earthly pleasures, and unwillingness to sacrifice for the sake of raising godly children.

Otherwise, like choices of where to worship, work, or live, choices with respect to when and whom to marry, and whether and when to bear--or try to bear--children are personal, and matters between the couple and God. If you are family or a close friend, you may be privileged to share in those matters, but if not, you have no ground from which to ask, let alone criticize.

The response to an impertinent question should both gently highlight the impertinence, and educate the questioner about the possible reasons why children are not yet on the way.

One answer to impertinent questions may be along these lines: "Thanks for your interest. Why do you ask?"

Another, especially after a recent miscarriage, or when battling infertility, may be to mention the problem (of which the questioner is undoubtedly unaware), and ask the inquirer to pray for you. "Thanks for asking. I'm sure you don't know this, but we miscarried last month, and would really appreciate your prayers for us." While it is often difficult to make such information public (even within the church), it does forestall the impertinent questions.

When all else fails, just say that "John [or Jane] and I are waiting on God to provide the children he wants us to have." Who can argue with that?

Posted By: Chip Watkins | January 13, 2012 12:22 AM

I think that the reason this is probably a WORSE offense among Christians (and especially those who style themselves Christian but don't spend any time in self examination) is that we excuse "well-meaning" gossip. All of those questions are gossip. Exactly what is "well-meaning" about prying into someone's sex life? If you ask someone if they are "trying" to have children and the answer is no, that leaves plenty of judgmental avenues open, doesn't it? And no opportunity that I can see to support or be a blessing to the unfortunate subject of your interrogation. Either she is "rebelling" against God's (supposed, from poor biblical exegesis) desire that every woman bear children, refusing to have sex in marriage (wouldn't that be a great coffee clache conversation) or she is using birth control which is another judgment-conducive topic amongst so-called Christians. How supportive is it to bring THAT up in PUBLIC?. Its not just infertility that is the issue -- if your spouse is struggling with addictions, if your marriage is struggling, if you are homeless and your "Christian" community has not noticed that you are living at a shelter (this happens a lot folks) then this ridiculous prying takes on a whole new level of hurt. Gossip is from the devil, whether it is the direct prying to get private information or the passing along of your conclusions about it later. Christian women need to spend a lot more time in James and check the tongue. NO gossip is really well-meaning, and the more we excuse it the worse we all become.

Posted By: cheryl | January 13, 2012 9:59 AM

Kate and William are not exactly "celebrities" in the American sense. As heir to the throne, William will be the head of state of the UK and 32 or so countries in the Commonwealth of nations; not exactly the same duties as Brangelina. Perhaps Americans tend to project their hollywood celebrity obsession on to the royal couple, but for the rest of us here in Canada and elsewhere in the Commonwealth, William is our future "president" and the royals are symbols of national identity and patriotism; we pledge allegiance to the monarch on a regular basis.

Posted By: Oliver | January 15, 2012 7:47 AM

It is also good to avoid talking about motherhood in terms of "the best job you can have" or "the best love you can experience" (both heard at recent baby showers within my church!). God is creative! He has many, many "best jobs" out there for his children and has already shown us "the best love."

Posted By: Amy V | January 15, 2012 3:08 PM

When I took an undergraduate, general education psychology course (admittedly quite a few years ago), we were taught that a married couple should spend a least 3 years adjusting to marriage before adding a baby to the mix. Has thinking changed so much since then that a baby in 9 months is considered a good thing?

The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge have a particularly high profile, and I would assume high stress, marriage. 30 is hardly dotage. I don't see what the rush is.

Posted By: DianneW | January 16, 2012 3:02 AM

@ Amy I certainly agree. I'm rather tired of being told that I don't really know what love is, I'll understand blank when I'm a mother, or other patronizing comments. It tends to happen particularly when I tell people that I will probably not be giving up my job when we have kids. All of a sudden everyone seems to know me and what I'm going to do so much better then myself. Whether they're right or not (probably not, I have good reasons behind that statement) it brings to mind the saying that even a fool seems wise until he opens his mouth.

Posted By: Cate | January 16, 2012 9:17 AM